Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs & More

[Taskmage]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs & More

You just in the same post said that people are barely able to make ends meet as it is, and then that it would be better if they had to pay more for things. Please reconcile.

This isn't just about iProducts (which people who can barely make rent shouldn't be buying anyway), it's about shoes and apparel and just about everything you can buy at a Walmart. Not all of these products are made in "sweat shops" but they are made abroad by workers who are cared for and compensated far less than we would find acceptable for a Western citizen doing the same job. These are products primarily consumed by the poorest Americans.

People in developing countries deserve better working conditions. I don't dispute that.
Giving them better working conditions will increase the costs of products in our country. I don't dispute that either.
Explain what should be done about this problem when, as you say, people here are already barely making ends meet.
It is not nearly as simple as you are making it sound.

[Malacite]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs & More

You just in the same post said that people are barely able to make ends meet as it is, and then that it would be better if they had to pay more for things. Please reconcile.

Easily; As I said, far too much of our money these days goes towards our homes (rent/mortage) on top of rising medical costs and stagnant wages. When I say cost more, I'm not talking about massive jumps here enough to reflect the higher standards (again see the Apple/China example). If more people actually got paid a decent living, they could in turn afford to spend a bit more and everyone would be better off.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs & More

Get a degree, work harder, get paid more, and stop crying...

That's not how the world works anymore, just the fantasy baby boomers live under of how they got where they are- and I say that as someone with a rather libertarian perspective.

Its really "know the right people, play the game, kiss ass and get promoted." This is how the utterly incompetent make it into management, degrees be damned. Once many people get salary-based wags its rather amazing how their work ethic evaporates. How awesome is it that full-time people get can get furloughed while these fuckwits in management blow their weekend hours in the office playing Angry Birds and Farmville.

Morale, team-building and sacrifice apparently aren't in their vocabulary.

EDIT: The point about the jobs thing was about how previously well-paying jobs have been largely replaced with ones that barely allow someone to scrape by, and that's a problem. Of course, Congress if far more concerned with lining their own pockets and trying to make Obama look like a tool than actually fixing things.

Right because Democrats never do that with the years a republican is president. I think that makes it rather clear the this petty political feud between baby boomer democrats and republicans is the cause of much of our problems. If they'd worry more about lowering various corporate taxes, closing the loopholes; finding ways to limit, expose and stop political payoffs that waste taxpayer dollars, reform campaign finance, vote for term limits and start bunking up rather than having to be rich and own two places to hold office - oh, and maybe just read and think about the bills they try to pass - we'd be a lot better off

[Malacite]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs & More

That's not how the world works anymore, just the fantasy baby boomers live under of how they got where they are- and I say that as someone with a rather libertarian perspective.

Its really "know the right people, play the game, kiss ass and get promoted." This is how the utterly incompetent make it into management, degrees be damned. Once many people get salary-based wags its rather amazing how their work ethic evaporates. How awesome is it that full-time people get can get furloughed while these fuckwits in management blow their weekend hours in the office playing Angry Birds and Farmville.

Morale, team-building and sacrifice apparently aren't in their vocabulary.

It's starting to catch on, but Robert Kiyosaski said it a long time ago that "Smart is the new rich". Basically, the real way to get ahead these days is to invest your money intelligently. Sadly, we had a really good opportunity a while back that would have set us up for life, but Dad passed on it without telling any of us until it was too late - I was really upset, and so was he, when I told him he could have applied for a business loan (the seller wanted 50k, and the business was already set up, Dad knew it well enough, and we coulda been making 5~6k a month PROFIT and probably grown it before long); it never donned on him to apply for one >_<

[Feba]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More



It doesn't matter if hard work gets you a bigger slice of the pie or not, or if it's right or wrong for some people to make more or less than others, when the very basis of income stays near constant, only increasing for those who already have an absurd amount of wealth.



And keep in mind, this only really extends to what we would consider upper middle class -- I think most people wouldn't feel like the people at 90th and even 95th percentile are particularly "rich", especially if they have families to support. There's so many people even higher than that, with salaries increasing at an even more ridiculous rate-- in 1992, the average CEO earned 42 times the average worker. Last year, 354.

[DakAttack]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp;amp;amp; More

Get a degree, work harder, get paid more, and stop crying...

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Also, I'm tired of people (mainly Mal) crying about income inequality. If you worked harder and invested more in a career you'd get paid more and wouldn't have to cry about inequality. Grow up man and focus on what matters most to you. If it's income, then stop bitching about video games and focus on growing yourself into someone that a business would want to pay more for to employ. (this is how business works by the way.) people dont get paid for being people. you get paid for what you can contribute to a business. not all people can contribute the same, thus THERE WILL NEVER BE INCOME EQUALITY. sit down, take the jello pudding pop out of your mouth and listen up son. there are some people that will always work harder and be more focused on growing themselves professionally. these people surpass others in terms of income. GET OVER IT. THEY WORKED HARD TO GET THERE AND THEY DONT WANT TO SHARE THEIR HARD EARNED INCOME WITH SCRUBS LIKE YOU. (Not necessarily calling you a scrub unless you fit into the category of wanting a more equal pay scale while not stacking up to those that have earned what they make.)

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/flame suit on

Found the republican.

[Mezlo]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More

a full 1/3rd of America's corporations pay nothing each year in taxes to federal govt. so they can keep paying the CEOs and share holders exorbitant sums of money.

Post your source on this. And it better not be from Jon Stewart or any member of the Daily Show cast, LMFAO!

[Malacite]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More

It's not like Jon makes that shit up, they do get their info from credible sources, but if Ayn here insists, here's just one;


Thirty companies paid no U.S. income tax 2008-2010: report | Reuters


Hell, one year General Electric not didn't pay anything in taxes, but even got tax credits because of environmental incentives put in by the Obama administration - I'm not knocking the credit itself, just that it's ridiculous to get money back from the govt while at the same time not paying your dues either.


Honestly, these days it's pretty sad that The Daily Show & Colbert Report are far more credible than all the major news networks combined.

[Mezlo]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp;amp; More

a full 1/3rd of America's corporations pay nothing each year in taxes to federal govt. so they can keep paying the CEOs and share holders exorbitant sums of money.

Post your source on this.

Thirty companies paid no U.S. income tax 2008-2010: report | Reuters

So there are a TOTAL OF 90 companies in the United States. That's interesting... Nice source blow hard...

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Honestly, these days it's pretty sad that people make up statistics in an attempt to prove their point.

and FTFY...

[cidbahamut]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More

It's still pretty nuts that there are companies that pay zero taxes.

[Taskmage]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More

Nice source blow hard...

Mutual respect for differing viewpoints might be too much to expect, but let's at least not stoop to name-calling.

This is probably where the one-third statistic comes from: Fortune 500 Companies are Avoiding Taxes
From 2002-2003, 82 of the 275 consistently profitable companies in the Fortune 500 paid zero or less in federal income taxes.

The more recent data referenced by the Reuters article shows that of the 280 consistently profitable companies in the Fortune 500 from 2008-2010, 111 paid less than half of the 35% corporate tax rate due to loopholes, which isn't as good of a sound byte but still pretty glaring. 30 of the companies actually owed less than nothing.(*)

Easily; As I said, far too much of our money these days goes towards our homes (rent/mortage) on top of rising medical costs and stagnant wages. When I say cost more, I'm not talking about massive jumps here enough to reflect the higher standards (again see the Apple/China example). If more people actually got paid a decent living, they could in turn afford to spend a bit more and everyone would be better off.

Decreasing medical costs is not something that can just "easily" be done. Ask the last 50 years of US Presidents.

And again, how do you respond to the fact that for everyone to earn what you're calling a "decent living" would require more money than the entire world economy produces, even assuming perfect income equality?

"Easily" said perhaps, but not so easily done.

[Mezlo]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More

Mutual respect for differing viewpoints might be too much to expect, but let's at least not stoop to name-calling.

Agreed. (But he did start it )

[Taskmage]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More

I guess, by calling you Ayn Rand?

Found the primary source on the 2002-2003 data, btw: Robert McIntyre and T.D. Coo Nguyen, "Corporate Income Taxes in the Bush Years"
I hate sources that say "according to so-and-so" but then contain no links to the raw data/study itself. Not that 99.99% of people will go make sure the methodology is sound or that the data hasn't been cooked in some way, but dammit you should be able to rather than taking some pundits word for it.

[Firewind]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More

It's still pretty nuts that there are companies that pay zero taxes.

Starbucks pulled that off in the UK (well they got close to it). I'll have to dig up the exact numbers for you but here's a bunch of links to some of the news reports:

Starbucks posts higher-than-expected earnings as it argues for tax breaks | Business | guardian.co.uk (Pinch of Salt, Guardian have a big Left-Wing bias)
BBC News - UK Uncut protests over Starbucks 'tax avoidance'
BBC News - Starbucks rejects tax row threat after Cameron speech
BBC News - Starbucks 'paid just £8.6m UK tax in 14 years'
Starbucks is right not to pay UK tax because it makes no profit, says coffee chain's tax advisor - Home News - UK - The Independent
Starbucks are right to pay no tax in UK: Coffee chains adviser Deloitte sparks row after defending claim it makes no profit | Mail Online (Pinch of Salt, Daily Mail have a massive Right-Wing bias)

[Malacite]

Re: Social Movements, Low Wage Jobs &amp; More

He's living in about the same fantasy land as she was so yeah, I thought it was apt. And that was a single source, google it yourself you lazy arse - for once, it was something that was actually all over the news networks a while back. Even MSNBC, which mentioned the whole GE getting a credit deal and keep in mind GE owns MSNBC. Not sure if that was just balls on Brian Williams' part or GE owing up to the truth but whatever.

Also worth noting, Facebook was among one of the companies that paid zip, and every major sports organization except MLB (which voluntarily gave their status up) is listed as an NPO. NFL makes billions a year, pays nothing in income taxes for it (the players do, but not the owners etc.) - because that's not totally messed up or anything.

More Than Two-Thirds Of U.S. Corporations Pay No Federal Income�Tax - Home - The Daily Bail

And here's another from freaking FORBES

Two Thirds of US Corporations Don't Pay Federal Income Tax: True But Horribly Misleading - Forbes

Satisfied? Probably not but there's no convincing some people. I swear you remind me of Steven Moore (hate that guy so much... can't stand his smug ass)

And I was wrong, it's actually 2/3 not 1/3 which is much worse. between that, the lobbying, the systematic and deliberate effort to marginalize (if not outright kill off) the poor, the exemption from insider trading laws for members of congress (da FUQ Obama, no balls at all....) the media bullshitting everyone on a daily basis to maintain things...


That last point is a serious one. Consider that all the media corporations in the U.S. are now run by only 6 people, and the list is actually shortening... well, so much for anti-trust laws. Even Dodd-Frank got guttered rather badly, and Elizabeth Warren couldn't even head up the very organization she was creating (though she's doing a fine job in congress now).


Thank f'ing God for Stewart & Colbert, both for bringing important issues to the forefront and for being able to deliver it in a way that doesn't just leave you jaded/dejected like Bill Moyers does. And I love Bill, don't get me wrong, but between his show and VICE (HBO's new investigative journalism show that's produced by Bill Maher & Fareed Zakaria - it's very good and only 30 min long each Friday) things can get a little too sobering at times. Things aren't looking too pretty to say the very least.


EDIT: I actually give Star Bucks a bit of leeway because of their CEO; Howard Shultz is a pretty good guy, one of the few alongside Bill Gates. Warren Buffet & Jeffery Sachs actually trying to fix things. From what I've heard, people are generally pretty happy working for the company too.


EDIT: Fixed Link