Magic: The Gathering

[cidbahamut]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

I think mana burn was an important part of the game. There's a fair amount of stuff that was kept in check by it, and there's a surprising number of cards designed with its existence in mind.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

my most recent 2 deck builds are great examples of it's necessity. Anyone care to play me before I head to work?

[Firewind]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

Really the reason why I play Modern and Standard is because manaburn has gone (that and it's a smaller card pool).

[Taskmage]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've ever taken mana burn. What card are you thinking of that was kept in check by it?

I'm surprised at all the hubbub about mana burn and nobody cares that damage doesn't go on the stack anymore. Especially considering what a huge nerf that was to goblins. No longer can you easily two-for-one by having a goblin deal damage to a blocker and then also sac it to Goblin Bombardment, a Sledder, or Goblin Grenade. No playing Aquamoeba as a 3/3 or bouncing your own creatures after they deal damage, no more double kills with Fling, no sacing Phyrexian Negator to Attrition or a Fallen Angel after it deals damage but before you have to sac permanents ... That rules change had a far bigger impact on the game than mana burn did. Hardly a day went by in high school that I didn't hear the phrase "after damage on the stack." It was practically as ubiquitous as "at the end of your turn."

[cidbahamut]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

As a trivial example: before the removal of mana burn you would have to think twice before playing Manamorphose on a hand without anything you could play in it because while card advantage is nice, there's also a chance you draw into yet another land and end up burning yourself for 2.

Another example: Braid of Fire
That's a risky thing to put on the board, because once your opponent removes the thing with upkeep that enchantment was fueling, it begins to just wreck you every turn for more and more damage.

There's plenty of times where I've found myself sitting on extra mana at the end of my turn when playing my Team Rocket deck. Combo decks in general that bank on getting mana in the pool and then comboing out but can hit a wrong turn and stall with tons of mana in the pool, that's a risk that no longer exists.

Heck, let's go back to the age old example: Mana Flare
You have to be careful with how you play when that's in play and even moreso when multiples hit the board. It adds a layer of depth to the game that is often taken for granted. Sure it's annoying, but it was also an important component of how the game functioned as a whole and I feel the game is worse off for its departure.

- - - Updated - - -

Damage on the stack is its own separate argument, and one that I'm still on the fence about.

[Taskmage]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

You could choose not to pay the upkeep cost of Braid of Fire if it ever became a liability. It's stronger now because you can have it tick up without paying for anything, but it was never really a risk. Mana Flare's effect is symmetrical. In the worst case if you don't have a mana sink on the board, it's still as likely to deal damage to your opponent as to you.

I just see the number of cases that mana burn is relevant to be so rare that it's not worth teaching new players about as a basic part of the game.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

It was also an important mechanic because it let you go: "Fuck you, I mana burn myself before you can kill me". That was pretty important at some of the tables I played at.

[Taskmage]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

Yeah, that was the most common circumstance that I'd see it. It was considered kindof a dick move, though.

[Firewind]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

Hey guys! I made a W/U version of the Kitties deck, anyone want to help me playtest it? :3

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

I used to have a deck whose purpose was to make my opponent manaburn himself to death.

"No way. Yyg made a deck with an unconventional and annoying win condition? You don't say..."

It's true. Back before they fucked with the mechanic of "the stack" I used to play cards that "tap target land" or "tap target perminent" or "destroy target land". My reasoning was that if they paid for something like "xyz creature for 3G" or worse yet... a timmy card for 8 or 9+... and tapped themselves out, I'd kill a land, countering the card and manaburning them for whatever the difference was... that is unless they had something else they could play in their hand. It was very effective... albeit very annoying... and made me a lot of enemies. To make sure I always had the advantage, I played counters and discard cards as well. The deck was B/U.

I'll see if I can recreate it and play with you guys using manaburn rules to prove my point.

[Mezlo]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

I'm going to learn this game, build a deck in cockatrice and then beat you all. i downloaded cockatrice last night...

[cidbahamut]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

I'm curious to see what kind of deck Mezlo comes up with.

[Mezlo]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

I can select any of the cards available in cockatrice, yes? or are certain decks not allowed to draw from?

[cidbahamut]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

You'll want to look up the official banned and restricted lists, Unglued and Unhinged aren't allowed as a rule of thumb, and Yellow Mage whines incessantly if your deck isn't legal in the Modern format.

Even with those limitations you should be absolutely overwhelmed with options.

[Mezlo]

Re: Magic: The Gathering

Does cockatrice run you through the game and manage card selection, or is it like traipse and everything is managed by yourself and the group?