Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

[cidbahamut]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

At the risk of making an ass out of myself (didn't follow US politics much when I lived in PR), isn't it? You hate A, and B is OK but you still don't like that option either. Then C appears with a similar platform to B, but better. Some of B's voters vote for C, now A wins by a landslide. Isn't the solution to move away from a single vote system? I don't see what voting third party is going to achieve other than help one of the two mainstream candidates win.

That's the problem, that's all it realistically accomplishes at the moment.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

At the risk of making an ass out of myself (didn't follow US politics much when I lived in PR), isn't it? You hate A, and B is OK but you still don't like that option either. Then C appears with a similar platform to B, but better. Some of B's voters vote for C, now A wins by a landslide. Isn't the solution to move away from a single vote system? I don't see what voting third party is going to achieve other than help one of the two mainstream candidates win.

It wouldn't really be an issue if there was a fourth option:

None of the above - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is, essentially, that a third party fucks with the "You must choose one of these two guys" thing. If the majority were to vote for McGuffin, they have to start all over or move someone up temporarily from another office lest the position remain vacant. Imagine the damage that would do to the corrupt aspects of the process, particularly campaign financing - a double loss means both sides have to pay their interests back or persuade them for another round. You can't just keep having fundraisers forever, though. Vladimir Putin saw how effective it was prior to his election, so he abolished it, but if we could get that option in and it couldn't be removed elections would go into overtime until someone people actually liked won.

At least it wouldn't be about hanging chads, voter fraud, keeping third parties out of debates. The binary approach is fiscally attractive. The forced either/or approach give us no real options.

Until then a vote for Obamney is a vote for Obamney. Nothing changes if you vote for these two except maybe-possibly-but-not-probable-at-all Roe v Wade at worst. Everything else will still suck.

Also, one of the biggest reasons we have people that don't vote is disenfranchisement. Neither option is desirable. For example, my sister refuses to vote. She's not interested and does not like either guy so she just won't vote at all. I am, however, voting so how can it be argued I'm throwing my vote away? Gary Johnson and Jill Stein are about as close to "None of the above" as it gets.

If people had the choice to pick NOTA, however, voter turnout would probably increase. If they can just say all these options suck and it meant something, they'd feel like they actually did have a say in things.

[Armando]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

That would depend on a majority hating all options though. If that doesn't happen, you haven't solved anything and it's the same any other third candidate.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

That would depend on a majority hating all options though. If that doesn't happen, you haven't solved anything and it's the same any other third candidate.

Most Americans dont turn out to vote at all. What does that tell you?

Its disapproval, disenfranchisment. They don't feel included in the process, so they've stopped participating in it. Its not that they don't care, they just see the shit for the shit and know they don't really have a choice or a voice.

If all options were on the table - Democrat, Republican, Green Party, Libertarian, NOTA - who's throwing their vote away at that point? It all means something.

[Armando]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Most Americans dont turn out to vote at all. What does that tell you?

That's not the point. The solution has to work under all circumstances, not just the present set of circumstances. If not enough people vote for NOTA, they threw their vote away just like any other third option under single vote system. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a NOTA option, but you need to change the way the winner is chosen too because it obviously fails under some circumstances.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

There is no wasted vote when you turn out to vote, ever, period.

Not turning out to vote is a wasted vote. Voting for the lesser of two evils is a wasted vote. Vote for who you believe in. If you don't believe in the the two options, vote for someone else and write them in if you have to.

If you're telling me I have to choose murderer or prospective murderer, I'm going to vote for not-a-murderer. If that's "Throwing away my vote," so fucking be it. I will not vote for more blood on my hands. We've already had too much of washing Bush and Obama's away.

[Raydeus]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

If it helps as a reference people here in MX have considered voting a waste of time for decades.

The past 2 elections have been won by the opposition leader but the Government shamelessly steals the elections and forgives proven election fraud criminals without much need to hide it. And all of it is under the orders and sponsorship of the US Government. Now, the problem is the US has had the same 3rd world elections for quite some time now. Only more expensive.

So no matter who you vote for in the current system, the outcome and the subsequent laws and policies have been already been rigged from the start. Everything else is just a show for the masses.

And while at least people in the US seem to be waking up to the futility of continuing with the current system it's probably already too late to root out the Corporate influence without resorting to destroying the current Government machine and rebuilding it from the inside. There was a report in RT about Ron Paul denouncing the Corporate "Think Tanks" influence more than 20 years ago, so you can imagine how much control they have by now.

[Armando]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

If you're telling me I have to choose murderer or prospective murderer, I'm going to vote for not-a-murderer. If that's "Throwing away my vote," so fucking be it. I will not vote for blood on my hands.

If voting for not-a-murderer means the worse of the two murderers wins, you've got more blood on your hands than if you had just voted for the lesser of the two evils. It's that simple.

Until the voting system changes, that's your only choice. Anything else is irrational. If you don't like it, change the system, but don't cast a vote that screws you over.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

At the risk of making an ass out of myself (didn't follow US politics much when I lived in PR), isn't it? You hate A, and B is OK but you still don't like that option either. Then C appears with a similar platform to B, but better. Some of B's voters vote for C, now A wins by a landslide. Isn't the solution to move away from a single vote system? I don't see what voting third party is going to achieve other than help one of the two mainstream candidates win.

That's about the size of it, sadly.


And the electoral college seriously needs to gtfo, but again the powers that be ain't about to allow that. Also again, as Maher likes to point out (though I don't ENTIRELY agree with this sentiment, I do feel there's some merit in it) he's the 1st Black President - so he's probably more cautious than he'd like to be about certain issues. I imagine if he wins a 2nd term things will be quite different.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

If voting for not-a-murderer means the worse of the two murderers wins, you've got more blood on your hands than if you had just voted for the lesser of the two evils. It's that simple.

This is like saying voting for Catwoman steals a vote from The Joker and lets Lex Luthor win. She may not have a chance of winning, but she has a conscience, at least.

[Mezlo]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

I imagine if he wins a 2nd term things will be quite different.

how so?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

At the end of the day, I'll probably still be voting Jill Stein, knowing full well the system is rigged against her 8 ways to Sunday. If I can do nothing else, voting for what I believe in is still a better choice than not voting at all.

If only all the eligible voters in this country actually did that, we could hypothetically actually see a dang third party win. Less than 50% of the people are voting each year! Whatever other flaws Democracy has aside, you can't deny that it is little wonder that our government is messed up and more connected to the corporations than the people. Money aside, the corporations vote, and the people don't (in large enough numbers) when they can!

There are several things messed up about politics in this country, but I'm not going to be contributing to one of them by not voting. It's just as Rush said, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!"

[Raydeus]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

That's true, but you also have to consider the electoral college and how that's rigged too. In the end they can legally flat out ignore the votes of the people and rig things their way legally through Math, through law and through force.

[Armando]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

This is like saying voting for Catwoman steals a vote from The Joker and lets Lex Luthor win.

That's exactly what I'm saying. For Catwoman to win, you need a different voting system. I'm not an expert but this seems like a pretty good alternative.

[Raydeus]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

And don't forget this one.

So, yeah.