Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

[Icemage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Interesting, because you repeated my intent;

Obama would raise taxes on everything to pay for his programs so the owner wouldn't even be taking $50k home. The point of owning a small business is gain wealth, not still be paid like wage slave.

...Do I really have to spell it out for you? Truly?

When people are talking about small business owners in the 200K range, no one (except YOU) is talking about people netting 50K after expenses.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

To be fair, it seemed like Obama was scribbling notes during the debate, too.

Taking notes during the debate is fair game, what's against the rules is coming to the podium with pre-prepared materials. The Romney campaign claims the object was a handkerchief and not paper, and he is shown wiping his nose with a handkerchief later in the debate. In light of far more sweeping and heinous shenanigans committed by both parties, I'm not inclined to care much one way or the other.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

If you look at sales tax as a function of income, it makes more sense. Remember, people in the upper echelons make more money than they can spend, so their effective taxation rate from a sales tax is lower because they spend a much, much smaller ratio of their income on products that are subject to sales tax. You only get hit with sales tax if you buy something, so someone making, say $500K per year and tossing 300K into savings is going to end up paying a lot less sales tax proportionally than someone living paycheck to paycheck at $25K per year.


Icemage

Exactly, hence why it's a regressive tax. Also, in Canada we have all 3 (Corporate, Sales & Income) and ti's crushing. Hell, most of our P.M.s are just freeloading off the damn system anyway it's a complete and utter mess. You *have* to tax corporations and higher-income individuals based on what they make. How much however, is has been the fierce subject of debate as of late. I personally find myself in the camp that lowering (not eliminating, because that's too heavy a loss of revenue) the corporate rates to attract business, but also closing loopholes & deductions while also putting higher constraints on people in the upper echelon. For example, the U.S. rate is about 36% (closing in on 40 fast) and could stand to be dropped to say 25% - but the maximum rate on top earners would also need to be increased with proportion to individual incomes.

For example, a movie star who makes a few million a year could probably eat another 3~4% and not sweat it, but a CEO making 8 (or even 9 in some cases) digit incomes honestly should see their rates go up to at least 45% if not 50% (I honestly wouldn't push 60% or higher except perhaps in the cases of billionaires). The govt really needs to start cracking down on tax evasion as well. There's something like an estimated $30 trillion being secreted away by wealthy individuals and corporations in offshore bank accounts and other tax havens. A full 1/3 of U.S. corporations don't even pay any income tax, which is ridiculous.

Finally, the capital gains rate needs to be seriously looked at as well. There's no reason a guy like Romney should pay such a low rate on passive income that high. I don't care if he's "earned" it through his success, he's still essentially raking in money every year for doing nothing, while people who are busting their asses off pay much higher rates. You can not justify that. But the rate needs to be means-tested as well - it's not fair to just arbitrarily hike the rate across the board - for example if someone gets lucky on a game show or wins a small lottery jackpot, or even if it's passive income but below a certain threshold. The source of the revenue as well as the amount (and if it's recurring) needs to be factored in.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

...Do I really have to spell it out for you? Truly?

When people are talking about small business owners in the 200K range, no one (except YOU) is talking about people netting 50K after expenses.

Rather than argue with you how about a story?

I used to work at a music store years ago. We sold used CDs. Big ol' warehouse-sized store. Too big for a handful of employees to keep tabs on everyone and too few cameras to catch everything. We'd find those annoying security cases sliced open and the contents were often stolen, dozens of them per week So I got to thinking, "Hey, I've been around a lot of used game stores, like EB and Gamestop - why not start a filing system, keep the CDS locked behind the register in some CD books?"

I pitched the idea, the manager approved and we filed everything away, locking the books away beneath the front registers

In the following month and all months following, we eliminated loss prevention on used product by 100%. It doesn't get better than that. What we lost on the CD books was made back in used sales and we were able to ship those dumb CD security cases to another store. Employee theft, however, did shoot up and the offender caught because one of the cameras was naturally situated by the front counter. She thought being pretty let her get away with anything. Turns out there's just no elegant way to pull those CD books out of view.

Has we left the system as it was - big, gross and convoluted - she would have been stealing CDs and getting away with it.

As an added bonus, the theft on new product also went down dramatically. This is because the idea was now planted in those visiting the store that we might not just keep used product off the floor - but new CDs and DVDs as well. Additionally, with all the used product under the register and off the floor, we were able watch the new product more actively, another contributing factor to the stats pointing at a reduction in loss prevention.

Sensing a libertarian analogy here?

I should point out that the powers that be were pleased with this, but they had this annoying need to meddle with how were sold things. Pre-order pushes for music people didn't want, playing music they didn't want to hear in-store. I mean, NC is Country, R&B, Rap and Bluegrass in that order, Cities have preferences and you stick to them - you don't push boy bands and Nickelback. My manager was a guy that liked taking credit for ideax - I didn't care, i just wanted good things for our store. He also had an affinity for stocking rave music - house, techno, breakbeat, electronica, trip-hop, Drum and Bass - costing the store hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars in special orders and the store got no returns on it. We were only ever supposed to special order if the customer asked and paid $5 down.

It ate into our profits. This load of product was something we couldn't sell. There was already tons of product on the floor, but he had to push for his special interest. I never aggressively pushed my own, I just sometimes slipped in a CD I burned into the player with obscure stuff I liked - Sylk 130/King Britt, Roni Size/Reprazent, Ben Harper, Fear of Pop, Bran Van 3000, The Corrs, Afro-Celt Sounsystem - sometimes it caught someone's fancy and they'd ask, I'd set up the special order and they'd pay an advance on it. That's how we were supposed to do it. Our manager created a deficit in special ordering shit he hoped people would just buy and we had to work harder to make up for his fucking failures. Everyone on staff was worth his salt except the manager.

My point here is if you simplify things, life is made easier for everyone, things are easier to regulate and bad people are easier to catch. Fair play can be maintained because people's hands aren't tied micromanaging all the other details. However, if the bad person is the person in power, the problems begin. Bad people will take credit for your good things and prioritize their special interests at the expense of the well-being of the business, community or country. Sadly, this is mostly what we have in pollitics and there are too few John McCains, Jerry Browns, Joe Liebermans and even Gary Johnsons or Jill Steins to keep them in check. We need more of them and a vote for Obamney is a vote against them.

Our system is convoluted and bloated and the solution is not to make it bigger and "better," but to streamline and trim the fat - and there's a lot of fat to trim. I do not think Obamney are up to the task regardless of what their fudged numbers say.

As for what became of that record store - my manager's continued poor, selfish decisions got to it before the iPod did. It was replaced with a mattress store a few years later.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Holy wall of non-sequitur Batman.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Actually better than the debate we had last week. I'm only 25 minutes into it, but the winner seems to be the audience. Bill and Jon are even a bit more informative than the people running for office.

[Raydeus]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

O'Reilly: Nobody begrudges people who need a safety net.

Really? They don't? Nobody does? Really!?

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Isn't the easy answer to "arthritis suddenly sweeping through" called "the baby boom?"

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

aw FUCK I forgot that was on tonight.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Finally got to the health care stuff about an hour and 10 in. Good exchange.

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Political Kombat

That was surprisingly good.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

It was very good overall. I didn't really expect Bill to keep up with Jon on humor but aside from a couple whiffs actually did really good. Then again, he's had plenty of comedians including Stewart to spar with over the years.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

He held his ground I'll give him that.

I still was surprised at his overall lack of knowledge on some matters, and just how much BS he was spewing - though to his credit, it's just based on his own knowledge & experience. I don't much care for the guy, but I do respect him for not being like Hannity or Beck who both either know better (and spew their BS on purpose, as Bill pointed out himself about guys like Limbaugh) or I suppose in Beck's case (as evidence by some absurdly retarded statements he's made publicly) are so misinformed and outright retarded that they buy into their own BS.


Bill was partially right about the debt vs deficit for example - Yes, John was mixing up the two, however Jon's overall point was still correct. In fact, had Gore won and kept up the surpluses, the U.S. would have been on track to eliminate the debt entirely by now.

I also totally agree with Bill's point about making voting more engaging. There are countries in Europe with laws in place now where you if you fail to vote without a damned good reason more than twice, your right to vote is revoked permanently. Too many people who bitch & moan about shit but then don't vote and yes while the system certainly is rigged to an extent and needs some drastic changes (in your case it's the electoral college that needs to GTFO, for us it's the "First Past the Post") if you don't vote, you do not get to bitch. Period. That's my view anyway.

I was actually afraid at first when he suggested a more engaged political process lol, because Ancient Greece is still to this date the only country to have been a true democracy. And honestly, it's just not a good idea - A republic (representative government) works far better. I will say however that the founding fathers were right to originally have senators appointed by governors, to act as a check against the house much in the same way the supreme court is a check against the entirety of congress. It was pure bullshit to change things to have Senators elected. At least here in Canada we were smart to follow that original example, although if Harper has his way that could very well change. You need an appointed Senate because that way they're not worrying about elections and focusing purely on the job at hand. And this is hugely important, because people are stupid and sometimes you need another party to look at a proposal and say "No, that's stupid, try again."

Unfortunately that's not quite how it works anymore. Now granted, it's not like appointments wouldn't be biased in some way either, but if you take the pressures of elections off the table it does help.


OH, and I absolutely wanted to skull fuck Bill when he mentioned Canada & the UK. Go to hell you asshole, we get *better* care than you guys and for less money. Yes, it can be slow unfortunately but no one ever mentions WHY - it's not the goddamn system, it's the proportion of medical staff & equipment to the population. We are grossly understaffed in that regard because we just don't have the money - not to mention a good chunk of our doctors and nurses leave Canada to work in the U.S. because you make a lot more money in the private sector. You're basically stealing some of our talent (hell, that's true of a lot professions really - people get trained & educated here and then move to the U.S. to strike it rich. Kinda the opposite of what's happening on your side with regards to illegal immigration)

[Mezlo]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

We are grossly understaffed in that regard because we just don't have the money - not to mention a good chunk of our doctors and nurses leave Canada to work in the U.S. because you make a lot more money in the private sector.

So Canada has better healthcare, just not with the good doctors and nurses. The good doctors and nurses left to go seek jobs in the US because of our private sector... Hmmm... That doesn't sound like "better" health care to me...

[Mezlo]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

oh poop

[Firewind]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Mal: Greece wasn't a Democracy. Only Citizens (the ruling class of Ancient Greece) could vote. No other social class was allowed to vote and women and slaves couldn't become Citizens. Basically if you weren't part of the Elite you had no say in how anything is ran at all (which is pretty much how the UK has always been run).

Mezlo: I think he means that Doctors have left for the US because they are paid more there.