Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Income inequality isn't a problem per se, except as a function of how easy it is to continue to hold the current societal framework together. In the US, we are held together by the concept of the American Dream: the promise that hard work will bring success with it.

Thing is, we (as Americans) work harder than just about everyone else on the planet, but when the economics don't work in favor of the majority of Americans doing better than "just getting by", the idea of the American Dream becomes corrupted, and you get a whole lot of people becoming disillusioned and dissatisfied... which causes the fabric of society to start to fray.

We're at a pivotal moment in history right now. The two competing schools of economic thought of Keynesian and supply-side economics are both under the microscope, and the Keynesians are winning (due to the plethora of evidence from the current recession). That in a nutshell is the biggest "general" problem the Republicans are having at the moment. They continue to believe in supply-side economics, and it has failed them spectacularly. Some people out there are too ignorant to know better, and some people who should know better cling to their preconceptions, but both groups are losing ground, and the current political atmosphere shows it. The Republicans want to go back to trickle-down supply-side economic policy, and the American populace is deeply suspicious of it. The Democrats like Keynesian economics, but the populace is also deeply suspicious of their non-economic spending.


Icemage

And the way things are going with the Politics & especially the Supreme Court, that dream is going to keep slipping further and further away as people work harder and harder for less money & happiness overall.

There's no questioning that America has the most productive work force in the world - that's absolutely true. However, you guys also have the least amount of paid vacation time (it's not even mandatory) averaging 13 days and less than 10% of Americans take the full amount. Compare that to France (which ranks 4th or 5th I believe in happiness globally) where they get 39 days on average and around 90% of French people use all 39 days.

You (it's a bit better but not by much in Canada) are getting screwed over more and more. Combined with the rising % of income that has to go towards housing and other things... to me, it just looks like Wallstree & Big Business are being allowed to buy too much influence, so they can screw over the general population as they see fit for their own gain and someone's gotta put a stop to it and strike a proper balance before it's too late. As the 1 guest in video points out, we're not quite there yet, but it's fast approaching at the rate things are going.


EDIT: It's not just the current recession - there is tonnes of empirical evidence to support Keynes' theory, the greatest example of which being The New Deal (which republicans and even the supreme court I believe tried to fight viciously). Nixon himself famously said "We're all Keynesians now". The Republicans are trying to (again) turn the U.S. into a plutocracy, with the help of Rove & Norquist.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

The bit about us working longer hours and getting less vacation time than other nations is especially frustrating in light of the fact that it's been proven in study after study that increasing the work week beyond about 30 hours actually results in a decrease in worker productivity especially in the fields of innovation that Americans are most proud of.

[Icemage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Now we're getting somewhere. It's going to take me a while to digest that and reply cogently. But if we're talking about an issue of class mobility then I absolutely understand the importance.

That's more or less it, though my point was a bit more meta than that.

Above and beyond the concept of social mobility, a big problem with income inequality as we know it today in the US is because the middle class is shrinking as a direct result of increased income inequality. That doesn't at first sound like a problem until one realizes that it is middle income people who drive diversity in the economy. If you lose the middle class, whole industries disappear.

Arts and theater? Professional sports? Non-mainstream music? Gone. Without the middle class, who has the disposable income to fill an auditorium?

Organic food? Mid-sized cars? Local restaurants? Gone. Without the middle class, who can spend on these things in enough volume to justify the price tag?

Coach class airfare? Theme parks? Video games? Yup. Gone.

The elite rich are that way because they have more money than they can spend - and more importantly, they are too few to support anything but the most exorbitant industries like fine art and luxury cars. The poor, on the other hand, do not have the disposable income to support anything that does not contribute directly to their immediate well-being (medicine, rent, food, utilities). Sure, they may make small sacrifices to purchase something they really want, but those are the exception and not the rule. Without the middle class as a buffer to support the rest of the economy, things go south really fast.


Icemage

[cidbahamut]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Not to mention once the middle class is gone, we're basically back to the old Peasants and Nobility dynamic, which I think we can all agree was a pretty shitty situation.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

I'd also like to add in the impact it has on families as a whole.

Just look at the education system - the U.S. spends on average, double what most other nations do. Yet the results don't reflect in the way they should (and the same applies to health care but let's not go there for now.)


A 4-day work week (or 5 shorter days which would be even better) and increased income for the middle class, along with adequate mandatory paid vacation time, would go a long ways towards helping things. Reduced stress, more free time to spend with friends & loved ones - the latter of which is incredibly important and is the tie in to my education point. Yes, there are problem schools and teachers, but I maintain the biggest issue is with the parents & the kids themselves. How many parents are really able to spend as much time as they'd like or need to with their kids, to help them with their schooling and really just maintain cohesion as a family unit?

It's not about making life easy for everyone - that's a fallacy. But you can improve standards, reduce stress and give the general public a better shot at things. A child who's properly fed (this is sadly still a large issue across North America), has a nice (and that's subjective I know) home and parents who aren't constantly overworked, worrying about bills and able to dedicate time to them tends to do far better in school. The teachers can only do so much.


EDIT: WTF is with the double posts...

Not to mention once the middle class is gone, we're basically back to the old Peasants and Nobility dynamic, which I think we can all agree was a pretty shitty situation.

That was my entire point, that's what the republicans (or more specifically, the extremist assholes in the party) are trying to do and someone really has to stop them. And with Obama having a chance to possibly nominate 2 more justices in his next term, it's even more vital he wins - it'd be nice to see a more liberal court for once, or at least one that isn't so pro-corporate. Antonin Scallia is a complete piece of shit, Thomas too. There really ought to be a rule that says you can't just abstain from every fucking vote.

Someone needs to put a hit out on Rove though. I'm dead serious, he's probably the single most destructive force in U.S. politics and Citizens United has only increased his influence. Virtually any and every truly conservative candidate has been bumped off for not towing the line. He runs that party, and it's his way or the highway. While I don't personally believe in Hell, I do like to think there's a special place reserved for assholes like him.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

I'd credit the poor price/performance of the American school system to a failure of central planning. To some extent the health care system as well, but that's a whole other can of worms which itself contains additional nested cans of worms.

I still don't think a broad increase in income is going to have the effect you want. I support the expansion of non-monetary forms of compensation. I feel that would go much farther toward increasing quality of life.

I'm puzzled by the child feeding issue. I think that if necessary I could feed my family healthily on $10 a day. So long as you have any income at all, it should be possible. I hear that food deserts exist where literally no fresh produce is available in urban areas, and that it's a big issue. I don't know the statistics, but that seems like the only excuse. If you're outsourcing a significant number of your meals to fast food establishments, then you're definitely going to have trouble affording enough calories and getting enough nutrition.

This time it may be me that's oversimplifying, but I think a lot of these domestic issues could be solved by a change in attitude and better "home economics" education. Not enough respect is given to homemakers and the tasks normally handled by those people, of which admittedly I currently am one, are being delegated to childcare facilities and pre-prepared food companies at exorbitant rates, while people manage their finances poorly and run into trouble. I didn't know how to do a single damn one of those things when I graduated high school or college and had to learn the hard way, but doing it yourself is just orders of magnitude more efficient and, if I may be so presumptuous, healthier for the family unit. I don't mean to harp on this, but I am dirt poor and do fine, so it's just unthinkable to me that a family with 2-3x as much income could be struggling to get by.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Really don't agree with most of that, but I do feel like homemakers aren't shown proper respect.

For reference, I grew up with my Mom running a daycare out of our home for 20+ years. We've always put an effort eating well. $10 a day? You have GOT to be kidding me. I think the most money we've ever had come in for any given year, counting both my parents incomes, was MAYBE 50k - barely enough for a family of 4 to get by and still have a decent lifestyle. I take huge offense at the very notion of "better home economics" tyvm, and many professionals like Suzy Orman speak out against that kind of thinking. People shouldn't have to live well below their means, not with the kind of money that's flowing around here.

Not that a lot of us don't buy a lot of crap we could probably do without, but there's no reason for so much of the wealth to be so densely concentrated in the hands of so few - especially with how much political influence can be bought these days.

Speaking of being healthy, that's another pet peeve of mine - way, way too much money going to corn, livestock & dairy farms to subsidize those industries. Fresh Fruit & Veggies shouldn't be more expensive than a can of pop and/or a bag of chips. It's hard to eat right when people aren't making what they ought to be and the junk food is so much cheaper.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

By "home economics" I mean cooking because you can literally feed a family for 80% less vs fast food, managing finances to properly track unnecessary expenditures and plan for emergency expenses, and general household management. I don't know what meaning you could be attributing to that phrase that you would find offensive.

As to food costs, I'll get back to you but I don't think I'm exaggerating much if at all. I'll see about digging up the records for our food expenses over the summer when the kids all ate three meals a day at home, to be most fair.

-- edit --

Ok, yeah. According to my records my 5-member household spent $2045 on groceries in the last 90 days. That comes out to about $23 per day. That's making sure to put protein, carbs, and a vegetable on the table every evening, and keeping a big bowl of apples, oranges and bananas on hand. That's also limiting beef consumption to one meal per week and having fish once per week. If I shifted the balance of calories more towards cheap starches like rice and pasta, eased up on the cheap protein restriction and replaced the expensive protein option with lentils and beans, not to mention cutting indulgences like frozen meals, I could easily get it down to $15 per day. $10 would take a little more creativity, but be possible. And dammit, I make this stuff taste good. It's not like we're living on clear broth and stale bread crusts here.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

You are.

And my Dad is a great cook - we've always eaten very well. $10 a day for a whole family though is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Check that post again.

-- edit --

To that my wife adds that last month we went *way* over budget, but we ended up with more stuff that we still have around. Which I didn't think about, but we do have two and a half eight quart tubs of rice still kicking around, a couple economy sized jugs of olive oil, dozen cans of tomato sauce, etc, and a couple weeks still before we have to restock ground beef and chicken breasts. Economies of scale ftw.

-- edit 2 --

Ok, lol yeah. Going by the 12 month totals, we spent $6070 for the year, which averages out to $16.63 per day without making any dietary changes. So $10 would be easy.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

My dad can often get plenty of quality chicken or beef at the store for $12 or less - and I mean enough for all 4 of us. So yes, if you're a diligent shopper you can definitely get by on a low budget. We have been for years. My dad checks usually 2-3 of the local stores on the way home every night as we like to eat fresh stuff whenever possible.

But I really don't think that should be a forced "norm" for people. Budgeting and fiscal responsibility should get a greater emphasis in schools and at younger ages (I didn't have any actual courses on the subject until Gr. 11) and yeah, in general we should cut back on consumption but I still don't see that as an excuse for how things are now. Food should honestly be the LAST thing affluent societies like ours should have to worry about (at least in terms of expenses).

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

I'm not meaning to excuse our entire society by that, but I think a lot of trouble with hunger, nutrition, and financial difficulty could be solved by proper education and common sense measures in the home, and those seem to be your primary concerns. Obviously just "living better" probably isn't going to help people who haven't been able to find work in two years, or people crushed under the weight of absurdly high medical bills, or whatever overwhelming circumstance might happen to apply, but I also know people who can't consistently make rent who eat out all the time and refuse to stop paying for cable television.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

On that last bit I totally agree. Lots of my friends (well, at least they used to anyway) just piss their money away, to the point where I just have to shake my head...

But then, I learned to fight back impulse purchases from a young age. Never having much (if any) money until you're 16 can do that.

[Melody]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Impulse buying is a hard thing to resist. Especially with all the new technology and stuff that's coming out in this day and age. The iPad 2 is still 500 dollars. Half a grand for a bigger iPod. You kidding me? 500 dollars goes a long way in a family now a days, it has to in this day and age. What irritates me more is the big spenders. Like celebrities who flaunt money. I think they're the bigger threat the the economy than anyone else.

[Feba]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

I'd credit the poor price/performance of the American school system to a failure of central planning.

Sorry, what? American education is funded partially, but practically uncontrolled by the federal government. There are a lot of shitty schools out there. But most of the problems are in the local community; or arguably, the modern American culture. Not something the government can do a ton about.