Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

[cidbahamut]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

Your Fox News is showing BBQ.

[Armando]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

Going under the knife on thier dime? Fuck no.

I thought that would only happen if you couldn't afford your own health care? Wouldn't the person going under the knife on taxpayer money have been fucked otherwise?

I don't find the moral objection argument convincing though. It creates an insane slippery slope where religious groups can lobby against teaching the theory of evolution in schools, simply because there's a lot of religious people that are offended by it. Or, that thing with the mosque or whatever temple it was near Ground Zero.

Disclaimer: I haven't been following this thing. I don't know what far-reaching implications it's going to have on healthcare rates and taxes.

[Malacite]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

This is probably the only time you're going to see an exception like this made because it's actually justified; otherwise yes the govt has no business telling anyone they have to buy X product.

Healthcare is unique in that everyone takes part in the system at some point, and everyone who does but isn't insured drives up everyone else's premiums dramatically. It's a huge factor in why you see hospitals charging insane fees like $1200 for a goddamned stapler and $800 for a needle! Sad fact: Hospitals only pocket 4 cents out of every dollar. Single payer would be far more ideal, but it's going to be a very long time (if ever) before it happens across the USA (Vermont is currently the 1st & only state to adopt it).


The demonizing of socialism needs to stop too. Honestly, shut the hell up already. It's fair to debate just how much of it you want, but don't act like there's nothing socialist in the U.S. already. What the hell do you think your roads, water, infrastructure, schools, libraries, emergency response services and even your precious military are?! Basically anything paid for by taxes and run by the govt = socialism. Govt. by it's own definition is socialism! The whole point is to pool resources and ideas to accomplish as a group what inviduals and the market can not (or at least can't do as well/better). Jeffery Sachs talks about parts of this as he describes America as a "Mixed Economy" in his book "The Price of Civilization" which IMO should be mandatory in school as it goes into great length about the current state of affairs, how the economy and govt really work and generally cuts through all the bullshit you see in the media.

tl;dr if Obama's a socialist then the founding fathers were all communists by comparison especially Franklin.

But believe the lies if you want, the U.S. isn't a democracy anymore anyway - it's a fascist plutocracy and it's going to take another revolution probably to fix things. The rich have taken over the country and they're not about to give it up.

[Armando]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

Healthcare is unique in that everyone takes part in the system at some point, and everyone who does but isn't insured drives up everyone else's premiums dramatically.

Please explain.

[Firewind]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

Better question is how is this not socialism. If I'm paying for your healthcare as much as my is by way of taxes, how do I not get a say in how you live? It's already pretty amoral that people want abortion to be covered (and make no mistake if it's not it will be) when there are people that feel strongly against it? What about obesity? Or a sex-change?

I'm being serious, whats covered and what's not and why?

What's the limit? Who gets to decide these things? With the original system moral quandaries and opinions don't matter as you have a choice, but if you're funneled into a federal system you might not.

I grew up having brain surgery three times. With the system as it was before, I was able to be treated within weeks of the cyst being spotted, but had it been a socialized system it might have been months and by then the cyst could have grown to where it did serious irreparable damage to my sight, my equilibrium, emotional and logical reasoning. Or I might have just died.

I've got more reasons than I can count to not trust the government on things even less sensitive than that. Going under the knife on thier dime? Fuck no.

You're acting like a hospital is willing to let you die because "lol socialism causes waiting lists" when waiting lists occur all the time in private healthcare systems. In countries that have some kind of subsidised healthcare system it is actually the private insurers that cause waiting lists by rationing out healthcare, and also cause people to die from waiting for emergency medical treatment because of no money or insurance.

I actually am not trying to troll you in this thread, my posts are being serious and my questions should be read in a "hey guys can someone explain this to me?" kind of voice, but it's gone from "Okay everyone has to get insurance now" to "My taxes are now paying for the entire healthcare system" which are two different things.

The reason that I am asking is because the term "Socialised Medicine" is basically the provision of healthcare with the government providing regulation and subsidisation from taxation AKA "spending taxpayer money". Mal already pointed this out, just because something is subsidised via taxation doesn't instantly make it socialist (And it's not even a tax, well I can only make that assumption since nobody has even bothered to explain how making everyone get insurance is a tax) as by definition it would make the very existence of government socialist.

Socialism

Etymology

Attested since 1832; either from French socialisme or from social +‎ -ism
Noun

socialism (usually uncountable; plural socialisms)

Any of various economic and political philosophies that support social equality, collective decision-making, distribution of income based on contribution and public ownership of productive capital and natural resources, as advocated by socialists.
The socialist political philosophies as a group, including Marxism, libertarian socialism, democratic socialism, and social democracy.
(Leninism) The intermediate phase of social development between capitalism and full communism. This is a strategy whereby the state has control of all key resource-producing industries and manages most aspects of the economy, in contrast to laissez faire capitalism.

Honestly I'm not sure how the two definitions become the same thing. A non-profit, publicly funded body such as the NHS in the UK would definitely be socialist, but not because it is publicly funded, but because it is part of a nationalised healthcare system. Subsidies via taxation is just a method of spending taxpayer money (except that nobody has yet explained to me as to why "Obamacare" = "Commie taxation").

[Etra]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

/shrug

[Feba]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

Better question is how is this not socialism. If I'm paying for your library as much as my is by way of taxes, how do I not get a say in what you read? It's already pretty amoral that people want Heather Has Two Mommies to be covered (and make no mistake if it's not it will be) when there are people that feel strongly against it? What about Twilight? Or The Catcher in the Rye?

I'm being serious, whats covered and what's not and why?

What's the limit? Who gets to decide these things? With the bookstore system moral quandaries and opinions don't matter as you have a choice, but if you're funneled into a government system you might not.

I grew up reading the Harry Potter series. With the system as it was before, I was able to buy the books within weeks of their release, but had it been a socialized system it might have been months and by then the internet would've been full of spoilers, I wouldn't have been able to enjoy the story, and I couldn't talk about it with my friends.

I've got more reasons than I can count to not trust the government on things even less sensitive than that. Playing video games on thier dime? Fuck no.

Also, did BBQ just suggest that he doesn't have severe emotional and logical problems?

[Malacite]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

Please explain.

Someone goes to the ER, but they are uninsured. SOMEONE has to foot the bill (in many cases taxpayers), which generally results in massive spikes in everyone's premiums. CNN runs a lot of crap, but the specials they've done on this are right on the money (can also site several other prominent figures to back this up like Dr. Oz and Andrew Wile)

If everyone is covered, that lowers the costs.

But just getting single payer won't magically fix everything like a lot of misguided liberals would a have you believe. It is by far the best, most cost-efficient system; look at Taiwan's system, it's crazy! They actually track literally every penny spent electronically and are in the top 10 I believe for global healthcare ratings. Single payer will just help keep costs more manageable, but even then even us countries that do have it are still facing major issues. Well, the western nations anyway.

It's our general lifestyle that's the biggest problem. People are overworked, underpaid, too lethargic and too many of us just don't eat well. The U.S. is one of the few western nations that doesn't mandate that everyone gets a minimum amount of paid vacation time. The average vacation time in the U.S. is a measly 13 days, and most people don't use much if any of it. Contrast that to France where the average is 39 days and 89% of all French people use the full 39 days allotted to them. They just put out a study showing that the U.S. also has a full 1/3 of all the extra weight (fat) in the entire world, the rough equivalent of 1.2 billion additional human beings.

I've been saying it for years and the media is only just starting to look at it far more seriously - Obesity is the single biggest medical issue in North America & the west in general (it's gotten horrendously bad in the U.K.). The cost to the U.S. healthcare system is in the trillions now and expected to grow even more. Farm subsidies for Corn Ethanol, Meat & Dairy etc. need to be done away with entirely and instead put that money into fruit & vegetables - you know, healthy foods.

It's a complete joke that a can of Soda costs less than a piece of fruit, or that a bag of chips is often 1/3 the cost of a salad. That is fucked up.​

[Armando]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

Someone goes to the ER, but they are uninsured. SOMEONE has to foot the bill (in many cases taxpayers),

Huh. I would've assumed the patient would end up with the debt, passing it on to spouse, next of kin or legal guardian if he died.

[Malacite]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

Huh. I would've assumed the patient would end up with the debt, passing it on to spouse, next of kin or legal guardian if he died.

That happens too in some cases.

[Feba]

Re: Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare" 5:4 - SUCK IT REPUBLICANS

But just getting single payer won't magically fix everything like a lot of misguided liberals would a have you believe. It is by far the best, most cost-efficient system; look at Taiwan's system, it's crazy! They actually track literally every penny spent electronically and are in the top 10 I believe for global healthcare ratings. Single payer will just help keep costs more manageable, but even then even us countries that do have it are still facing major issues. Well, the western nations anyway.

The administrative side of Taiwan's system is pretty spiffy, and there's a lesson to be learned there. On the other hand, the actual doctors are terrible, which leads to second-rate service all the way down the line. To clarify, Taiwanese doctors are infamously machine-like, and any of them that can manage to get a clientele run revolving door clinics; you wait around for an hour or two, the doctor looks you over for a couple minutes, and then decides what's wrong with you and tells you what drugs you need. And believe you me, you need drugs. There are even dermatologists who will simply take one look at someone's face, write a prescription, and call for the next person, without asking questions, really knowing anything about the patient, or explaining the drug in any way.

They also have multiple hospitals devoted to Traditional Chinese Medicine, so they're not exactly paragons of progress and reason here.

/of course feba hates Taiwanese doctors
//he's dating a pharmacist's daughter