Foreign Languages General

[Feba]

I know I'm not the only person studying Japanese, and I'm sure others have interesting things about whatever language they're studying.

Was looking up some stuff on reading newspapers, and found this: 漫画の新聞 マンガでèªã‚€ãƒ‹ãƒ¥ãƒ¼ã‚¹ -- looks interesting, might be a good intermediate step for those who can read manga but aren't at the point of papers yet; or alternatively, people used to reading formal material, but not familiar with (or much interested in) stuff with things uncommon in that, like sound effects and handwritten characters.

Also ‚±‚Ç‚àƒAƒTƒq [ŽóŒ±EŠwKî•ñ–žÚ[ | ’©“ú¬Šw¶V•·@’©“ú’†Šw¶ƒEƒC[ƒNƒŠ[ ; which is a publication of the Asahi Shimbun aimed at grade schoolers

[Firewind]

Re: Foreign Languages General

I don't know that the fuck is in that second link but the second I did click it, my computer and connection both slowed down to a crawling pace until I closed the tab.

Did it about 5 mins ago and everything is still slow. Running virus and spyware scans now. I advise people not to click that link until we know what the hell is on that site.

[Feba]

Re: Foreign Languages General

considering it's a major Japanese corporation?

It's probably just some weird flash junk or something on your machine. Japanese websites love to have a bunch of random flashy crap you don't need.

[Raydeus]

Re: Foreign Languages General

The site is pretty light though, so it's probably the flash plugin that got stuck.

Just got to close it manually from the task manager if it doesn't stop after closing the browser.

[Aeni]

Re: Foreign Languages General

considering it's a major Japanese corporation?

It's probably just some weird flash junk or something on your machine. Japanese websites love to have a bunch of random flashy crap you don't need.

If they run ads from sponsors (read, 3rd party) then there's a likelihood that nefarious people could run some shady ads.

That said, if it's flash apps, then that's the problem. Running Firefox w/ NoScript would be the best solution.

[Feba]

Re: Foreign Languages General

Anyway, I'm kinda wondering what those of you who are working on another language feel like your biggest weak spot is?

For me, at the moment in Japanese, I've been conversant for over a year and a half now; but once you reach that point, it starts to get harder to tell that you're getting better. All I can really say is "oh, I understand more of TV and songs quicker", and "oh, I can read more kanji", but a lot of the kanji simply comes from studying Chinese. Kinda frustrating, once you get through that break-through point from beginner to intermediate (which I consider to be highly comfortable dealing with day-to-day subjects; able to understand TV dramas and the like as long as they don't veer too far into the fantastic), it's a long way to go to get up higher, and there's another long stretch from high-intermediate to advanced (which would be comfortable leaving that zone, dealing with specific subjects beyond the touchy-feely, reading substantial written material).

I think a lot of people give up on Japanese before they make it to intermediate, since it takes quite a bit of endurance to keep pounding at it until you get over the PITA that is passive verbs, multiple kanji readings, and simply the vocabulary it takes to have a conversation in any language-- much easier to pick up in a European language. Also, never a problem for me, but the 'speaking backwards' aspect of the grammar is something a lot of people simply have a hard time adjusting to; in a lot of ways, it's easier to speak Chinese, since its grammar is pretty damn similar to English (all things considered) and you can generally put words about where your brain wants to. Once you make it to intermediate though, I think it's much easier to keep at it, since you can have a lot more fun with the language while you learn (watching shows and movies, listening to music, playing games).

Frankly, I'm not really sure exactly where I am-- a little over a year ago, when I arrived in Japan, I took a placement test for classes. That school has four classes in the intermediate level; Low I, Low II, High I, High II. The teachers pulled a group of us aside during orientation, told us they weren't sure whether to place us into the high beginner class or the low intermediate class, gave us additional testing. I made into the intermediate class, and after spending a couple weeks absolutely lost, I adjusted pretty well and wound up as probably the fourth or fifth best in my class. I had been studying over the break hoping to test into High Intermediate I; but of course the earthquake disrupted my studies, and then I had to leave Japan. I have no idea if I even would've made it into High I if I'd stayed in Japan, and if I had I'd be studying at a college prep language center right now.

I've thought about taking the JLPT; but looking at prep materials I can tell the N4 is really simple, and the N3 is full of vocabulary I don't understand. Vocabulary I think is my main problem at this point-- even reading newspapers, most of the grammar I get, it's vocab that leaves me in the dark. Novels have slightly more "what is that thing" grammar, but nothing that a quick bit of research doesn't explain. Kanji aren't too hard to read for words I know, plus I'm picking up new kanji all the time from learning Chinese. Words I don't know, knowing kanji wouldn't help me for shit anyway. I can probably read around 1000 kanji right now, but which ones show up vary wildly based on subject matter.

So I'm taking a two-pronged approach to vocab. Using a vocab book for JLPT N5-N1; starting with N5/N4 review to get the words I already know fresh in my head, as well as pick up any kanji I'm not familiar with there, then I'll work my way up. On the other side, for learning new and more advanced vocab, I'm studying news articles; reading them, dissecting their vocab. Hopefully before long I'll be reading news articles on common subjects without much dictionary use, and from there I can branch out a bit more into advanced Japanese, reading books, and so on.

[Raydeus]

Re: Foreign Languages General

For me is Kanji, definitely kanji. I just can't make myself study as much as I should be, which translates to very poor reading speeds whenever too many kanjis are involved.

I need to read more to get used to them so I can gain enough practice to read at a decent speed, instead of just taking my sweet time all the time. <_<;




PS > Although I know what you mean about hitting some sort of blurry zone once you reach a certain level. You can see it in my english. Since I don't live in an english speaking community once I stopped double checking -all- my sentences before speaking or posting, and started just using english unassisted I... many times find myself wondering if I'm actually advancing or going backwards.

[Feba]

Re: Foreign Languages General

Honestly, I strongly suggest against solely studying Kanji. It's boring to the point of self-defeat; it takes a huge amount of endurance to do nothing but look at characters. Plus, if you don't see them in context, it's damn hard to use them, and you're going to be learning a bunch of advanced shit you don't need, or not learning a bunch of shit you do need. Like today, reading the news, I saw 新たな -- something which never came up in a huge amount of classroom study. I'm sure it's a relatively rarely used word, but if you're learning based on kanji, you'd hit it just trying to learn the extremely common 新. On the other hand, using them in context, you immediately start to understand new material and build confidence. You learn usage (especially things like okurigana which are a total bitch to memorize out of context), and also internalize the grammar. Plus, making language use more practical means you have an easier time actually using it as your skills improve.

I don't deny that a completely robotic student could learn kanji much faster by attacking them systematically, but I also haven't seen such a system devised (in a way I'd be satisfied with, and you'd also have to consider that any such system would need modifications to suit the needs and methods of any given student), and without having that ahead of time and enforced in a rigid, classroom setting, I don't see it happening. Or in other words, if you're working for the Department of Defense, you could make a great curriculum for familiarizing people with Chinese characters quickly; others are probably better off not doing that. Plus, additional context aids in long term memorization without confusion-- while I was in Japan, I had to learn over 50 kanji a week, up to 70 at one point, but I also very quickly many of them. I still have my kanji sheets; giving them a quick glance over, I could only say I could properly use half of them in writing; and those might not immediately spring to mind. Those that do would largely be limited to one context, when there's others available (and taught). Also, many of them I recognize primarily from having relearned them in studying Chinese.

I don't really see huge benefits to kanji study without context; it's not like you're learning words like 'reform' and "economics" and "planning committee" to the point of being able to write them out in hiragana without serious book learning anyway.

[Raydeus]

Re: Foreign Languages General

Nah, when I say study kanji I mean reading something with a dictionary (or 3) to "decipher" along and increase my vocabulary. That's how I learned english on my own, so I'm kinda used to doing it that way.

Although I had some kanji uh...cards? With common words I would study and practice writing when I didn't have much to do at work, but haven't really used those in a very long time.

I'm sure I could be doing something more effective, but I kinda lose interest in advancing more when my current level is good enough to play games and watch anime without having to use a dictionary or translation software often.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------

PS > Considering I'm not going to Japan anytime soon the only real motivation I have to learn more kanji is reading Musashi's 五輪書 in Japanese.

[Feba]

Re: Foreign Languages General

speaking of kanji, I forgot how much I adore Introduction - KANJIDAMAGE


also found ä¸æ–‡æœ€å¸¸ç”¨600句çŸèªžé“地英文表達 - 台灣深藍å¸ç”Ÿè«–壇 while I was looking up some commonly used conversational phrases in Chinese. Keep in mind some of these might be Taiwan-specific; Beijing and Taipei speak pretty differently, though they are both Mandarin, and seen as the national language of China. Just have to be careful about which China you're dealing with.

[Aeni]

Re: Foreign Languages General

For me, at the moment in Japanese, I've been conversant for over a year and a half now; but once you reach that point, it starts to get harder to tell that you're getting better. All I can really say is "oh, I understand more of TV and songs quicker", and "oh, I can read more kanji", but a lot of the kanji simply comes from studying Chinese. Kinda frustrating, once you get through that break-through point from beginner to intermediate (which I consider to be highly comfortable dealing with day-to-day subjects; able to understand TV dramas and the like as long as they don't veer too far into the fantastic), it's a long way to go to get up higher, and there's another long stretch from high-intermediate to advanced (which would be comfortable leaving that zone, dealing with specific subjects beyond the touchy-feely, reading substantial written material).

You go from language to culture and then change your frame of thinking. Then you can become Japanese. The latter will not come easy even for people who've lived in Japan for over 20 years. The culture part is just cramming your head with stuff that is only relevant in the country and nowhere else.

[Feba]

Re: Foreign Languages General

uh, no. culture isn't a barrier at all, pretty much just vocabulary, thanks.

[Aeni]

Re: Foreign Languages General

uh, no. culture isn't a barrier at all, pretty much just vocabulary, thanks.

Maybe you misread, but I said culture wasn't the barrier, and that it only required memorizing a few things about a particular country that wouldn't be relevant in another.

However, the frame of mind, the way you think, that's required to change. Vocabulary alone does not make you Japanese. If you think that, you got some serious issues with your education.

[Feba]

Re: Foreign Languages General

Who on earth wants to become Japanese?

もしかしてJapaneseというとAeniさんは「日本人」と考えるけれど、もちろんこの外語å¦ç¿’について話は「日本語」なんだろー？　

それとも、Advancedになれること？　たぶん文化もいるけど、上級へ進める為にbecome Japaneseなんてはやりすぎだよãã€‚Advancedといえば特別なことじゃなくて、ただそんな高校や大å¦ã§å‹‰å¼·ã™ã‚‹ã‚‚ののèªè§£ã‚’できること。それには日本人の考え方はいらないんだ。

[Feba]

Re: Foreign Languages General

(10:47:52 PM) Taskmage: Your unicode should be fixed for future posts.
(10:48:03 PM) febaen: yay, now I get to annoy people in three languages!

So in case anyone is wanting to post something in a non-roman language, that shouldn't be an issue now.


Also, I do want to reiterate that I'd like to see people in here not talking about Japanese.