Why do we put up with Karzai?

[cidbahamut]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

As an absolute? Hell no it's not good for anyone, but neither is the other end of the spectrum we're currently sitting at where we've situated ourselves as the country that's trying to control every other nation either directly or through subtler means. We need to step back and lead by example rather than having our hand in every cookie jar.

[Malacite]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

I agree, and I wasn't suggesting you go with either extreme.

But when I hear people like Ron Paul calling for abolishing foreign aid altogether, I have to seriously shake my head. Foreign comprises literally 1% (or around that) of your annual budget... and does a lot of good. Cutting that out completely wouldn't be doing any favors for anyone.

He is right though, when he talks about getting the military out of everyone else's business and closing bases. The U.S. still has bases in Germany & Japan for example... and really, what's the likelihood of them starting up any shit ever again? Slim to none I'd say.

No, I am very glad to hear that Obama is starting to side more with Biden on these matters, by way of reducing troops and going with a counter-terrorism strategy rather than occupation. I'd rather they just bug out altogether, but that's obviously not happening.

There's no reason to even have a military presence in these shit holes. What good has it done? Smarten up security at home in a sensible manner, bring the troops home and should an incident occur on American soil again, deal with it. This shit is not going to go away, you just have to learn to minimize it and deal with it.

I don't mean to trivialize 9/11 in the least, that was a horrific tragedy, but the long-term damage that has been done with this bullshit war on terror has far outstripped the 3000 people who died. Thousands of troops dead for nothing, arguably worse relations with the Arab world, and Trillions of dollars of debt have been racked up when the country should actually have paid off the debt entirely by next year.

[DakAttack]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

But we got Bin Laden. Mission: Justified.

[Malacite]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

I hope that's sarcasm...

[cidbahamut]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

It's Dak. When is it not sarcasm?

[DakAttack]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

[Malacite]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

That might be funny if it wasn't so fucking sad.

[Feba]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

The U.S. still has bases in Germany & Japan for example... and really, what's the likelihood of them starting up any shit ever again? Slim to none I'd say.

Yeah, and after the cold war? Russia failed so hard that there was no WAY they'd ever start bringing back an oppressive dictatorial state 20 years later.

Germany CLEARLY has given up their aspirations of being a regional superpower; just look at how weak they are in Europe right now. It's not like they have a huge amount of power in the EU, nobody would criticize it as a peaceful takeover.

And Japan? Psshaw, their constitution doesn't even allow them to have an armed forces! Nevermind the JSDF, they're only there for "Self defense". It's not like they would ever conduct military operations overseas, far removed from Japanese soil.

And now to turn off the sarcasm filter, you fail to realize that these bases are far more about regional control than anything else. Bases in Germany keep us close to the Russians, bases in Japan keep us close to North Korea and China; bases in Afghanistan and Iraq are likely going to keep us close to Iran and Pakistan (and potentially, India). Keep in mind that of these countries, North Korea, China, Iran, Russia, Pakistan, and India all have nuclear weapons (the first is debatable, actually, but they proclaim that they do so they must be treated as such). Also, iirc Germany has access to US nuclear weapons.

Japan actually wants us there for the most part, it's just some of the bases cause undue trouble for the locals. I lived very near three US military installations in Tokyo, nobody minded them at all. Having the US on the island provides both a regional interest (protecting our own asses) and quick response to any shit that China or North Korea try to pull. Same principle with the bases in South Korea. For that matter, Russia also has territorial disputes with Japan; while it's unlikely to go past diplomatic stuff at this point, it's always possible that someone does something stupid or makes a power gesture that goes too far.

There's also the building conflict in the South Asia Sea; with PRC, ROC, Vietnam, Brunei, the Philippines, and Malaysia all staking claims to the same tiny group of islands (which is pretty well uninhabited, but believed to have rich oil deposits, of course). China recently announced their first aircraft carrier (made out of third hand soviet parts, lawl), and Taiwan has been begging the US to sell them some new F-16C/Ds so they can be more effective in telling China to fuck right off. The US has also decided to stick our paws in this (understandable for a number of reasons; we like us some favorable oil agreements, navigation rights [also, as a Canadian, you should be familiar with how much we enjoy pissing about claiming navigation rights for shit], any chance we get to fuck with China just for the lulz, etc.), so being able to exercise power in the region effectively is important there.

[Malacite]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

Funny, I coulda sworn the troops in the DMZ were for keeping tabs on North Korea (which I agree with because NK is a huge shit disturber)


Have you ever seen what remembrance day is like in Germany? They deride themselves in shame, vowing "NEVER AGAIN!" year after year. Even just bringing up WW2 will get you a lot of dirty looks - they are deeply ashamed of their past. Just because they're an economic power in the EU doesn't mean we're going to see Hitler 2.0 any time soon.

I don't think that *every* military base should be shut down, but there has got to be a lot of them that can afford to either be downsized or closed altogether. There's a line between being proactive about defense, and super-imposing yourselves upon everyone else's business and more often than not you guys cross that line.

I'm not so naive as to think there shouldn't be anyone trying to police the world - I wouldn't trust Russia, China, and many others as far as I can spit. But where does it say you guys have to be the only ones doing it, and at the tax payers expense?


Case in point, they were talking earlier on CNN today about how China has all kinds of mining and other lucrative ventures going on inside Afghanistan - yet they contribute nothing to maintain the peace in the region. And it's same case with Libya - they're Libya's biggest customer for oil, but they aren't doing anything to help the situation there.

When are we (the West as a whole, or at least North America anyway) going to stop taking this kind of bullshit and do something about it? Whatever happened to the laser-grid or whatever it is now that you guys are working on to intercept ICBMs?

Honestly, when are we going to stop catering to the arabs, the chinese and everyone else who are just having a field day taking advantage of our collective efforts for their own selfish gains?

How much intellectual property and other secrets has China ripped off the states? They have absolutely NO RESPECT for IP Rights, among other atrocities and yet we keep trading with them and buying their cheap crap, feeding their insane 9% annual growth of GDP. Don't even get me started on how our own respective governments are continuing to fuck over the middle class of both our Countries.

EDIT: Yeah I calmed down and took it out, though I still feel vilified in saying it previously.

[DakAttack]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

Let's consider the rage quota met.

[Feba]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

Just because they're an economic power in the EU doesn't mean we're going to see Hitler 2.0 any time soon.

Uhhuh. You do realize you don't have to be a neo-nazi to be a threat to world peace, right?


Anyway, ignoring the rest of "Malacite Doesn't Read The Paper" times, who the hell is this "We" you keep speaking of? America hasn't absorbed your boring-ass country yet.

[Malacite]

Re: Why do we put up with Karzai?

^ you're not the only ones with a major commitment in Afghanistan and we're your biggest trading partner.