21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

What you believe has nothing to do with me. And vice-versa. I simply said it was fiction. That's the beginning and end of what I was trying to say.

You said "everyone should believe its fiction." What's left to suggest about how you feel toward people that might believe otherwise? Seems that statement has a LOT to do with what you believe.

We already know what to think of people who think professional wrestling or Santa Claus is real. They're not quite in touch, are they? They're a bit dim, which is a nicer way of saying "stupid."

So if someone does believe the Bible, the Qur'an, in Budda, Jesus, Shinto deities or whatever and you say is fiction - what are they?

Personally, I think if it gives someone strength to get through the day, hardships, let's them be good to others, live peacefully and enjoy life - more power to them. The problem with any system of beliefs - even non-belief - is when you start imposing it on others.

[Taskmage]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

You said "everyone should believe its fiction." What's left to suggest about how you feel toward people that might believe otherwise? Seems that statement has a LOT to do with what you believe.

We already know what to think of people who think professional wrestling or Santa Claus is real. They're not quite in touch, are they? They're a bit dim, which is a nicer way of saying "stupid."

So if someone does believe the Bible, the Qur'an, in Budda, Jesus, Shinto deities or whatever and you say is fiction - what are they?

This suggests that any two people with a mutually exclusive belief system, thus inherently believing that the other believes a fiction, must think that their pair is stupid. I don't think you want to follow through with that.

Personally, I think if it gives someone strength to get through the day, hardships, let's them be good to others, live peacefully and enjoy life - more power to them. The problem with any system of beliefs - even non-belief - is when you start imposing it on others.

And this flies in the face of what this entire thread is about, which is how dangerous and destructive uncritical belief can be even to oneself.

[Murphie]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

Stop making arguments I'm not making, BBQ.

edit: Or at least, stop assuming you know what I'm saying. If YOU want to make an argument you are, of course, free to do so. But it has nothing to do with me.

[Neverslip]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

I like the Silmarillion.

>.>
<.<

\(0,o)/

[Feba]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

Personally, I think if it gives someone strength to get through the day, hardships, let's them be good to others, live peacefully and enjoy life - more power to them.

I get the same thing from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, but you don't see me going around praying for Spiral Energy.

[Mhurron]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

I get the same thing from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, but you don't see me going around praying for Spiral Energy.

That's retarded, you don't have to pray for Spiral Energy. There are only two things that can be taken from Gurren Lagann - Yoko's tits are awesome and forehead boy should die.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

This suggests that any two people with a mutually exclusive belief system, thus inherently believing that the other believes a fiction, must think that their pair is stupid. I don't think you want to follow through with that.

I'm making the point that suggesting everyone is just supposed to take their belief system as fiction is nothing but insulting.

I'm not going to say what Muslims believe is fiction because I'm a Christian. That would be kind of silly, because the Bible and the Qur'an have the Torah in common, so does Judaism, for that matter. I would be partially invalidating what I believe by doing so.

What I am going to say is implementing Sharia law in western culture is going to set society as a whole back several decades. If you want Sharia, keep it under your roof and reeled in when you're out in public. Most of the ones in my area keep it tame and I see them all the time, hell, they let their women show their whole faces in public and in some places that would be sacrilege.

They got it under control, more power to 'em.

And this flies in the face of what this entire thread is about, which is how dangerous and destructive uncritical belief can be even to oneself.

I'm not saying this isn't a victimless crime, the preacher was a creep, but all those people were capable of critical thinking and chose not to use it. They joined a cult

There are cults, there are religions and there is faith. Three very, very different things.

Cults are dangerous, they deal in absolutes and extremes. They attract people that take beliefs to an extreme that is dangerous to themselves and others - be that emotionally or otherwise.

Some parents that believed in this Doomsday stuff gave up their kids' college savings to contribute to the cause. Now those kids are ready to graduate high school... yeah. Kinda sucks, don't it. I can hate the preacher, but on that score, I'm gonna hate on the dumb parents that believed guy enough to sacrifice a future for their children.

As for the preacher, he's got some serious explaining to do and to give that money back.

Religion is rather different. It can be a strong guiding belief in anything you wish to follow, even politics, science and Athiesm qualify. They are ultimately a belief system and a set of rules, capable of good or harm. My problem with this set is that it generally is just a lot of people going through the motions and I seldom find anything genuine in it. I might learn something about that Bible that day and that's about it.

Faith and spirituality are heartfelt, personal beliefs. They might be tied to a religion, but they are not ruled by the leader of a church or your peers. Spiritual people are more capable of looking at what they believe in objectively and are less interested in putting on a show for others to see. They may live fairly passively or make great sacrifices to aid others on the basis of their beliefs, but they do not use those beliefs to control others - that's very important.

So its OK to dislike religion. I personally dislike most churches I go to because many of them are all about the show and social graces and not about something heartfelt. But there are churches I like, I occasionally visit them - I just don't make it a regular habit.

What I don't like is someone saying a religion or belief is wrong or "fiction" just because someone else feels different, be it because of a bad experience, a series of them or just them being a hipster tool. People don't need your approval or analysis of their beliefs, much less how you think they should approach it.

I've known people from all walks of life that can keep it in check, they aren't paranoid about what others believe and I don't have a problem with what they believe.

What people do, how they live and all that's fine as long as its not imposed on me. I don't go out in the world worrying about being imposed upon and don't take a slight flash of culture as such.

I'd just as soon tune out the doomsday people as I would the guy at the AT&T booth at the mall. You can look at the train wreck of you can keep on driving. You can watch if you want to, I'll keep going.

[Armando]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

What I don't like is someone saying a religion or belief is wrong or "fiction" just because someone else feels different,

Murphie didn't say Christianity or Catholicism is fiction. He said the Bible is fiction. You have a valid point, it's just not relevant to what Murphie said (which he already pointed out.) You can treat the Bible as fiction as many sane Christians do and still believe in the Holy Trinity, the 10 Commandments, etc.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

I'm not going to say what Muslims believe is fiction because I'm a Christian. That would be kind of silly, because the Bible and the Qur'an have the Torah in common, so does Judaism, for that matter. I would be partially invalidating what I believe by doing so.

So what would you say about Eastern religions? And not just simply Buddhism or Taosim, but Hinduism and Shinto, as well. All those have nothing* to do with what you believe. (*Though I've seen it argued that modern Hinduism is actually quite similar in practice, but that's not my point.)

I understand very well your good intentions, BBQ, but your word choices don't seem to fit it the best it can.

[DakAttack]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

Most of these religions have the same ancestor, Zoroastrianism. Wikipedia has a decent article on it. It actually makes more sense to me than modern religions. If you're thinking one is more correct than the other, it's worth taking a look at where they all came from.

[Feba]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

Zorro wasn't a fucking prophet.

[Taskmage]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

Zorro wasn't a fucking prophet.

You take that back.

[DakAttack]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

Z

For Zoroaster.

[Taskmage]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

I'm making this post with my admin hat off and hanging in another room. Comments about posting behavior are personal and not official.

I'm making the point that suggesting everyone is just supposed to take their belief system as fiction is nothing but insulting.

As Armando points out, that is not what Murphie is saying. He commented only on the Bible proper, and specifically made no more arguments along that line. I can't stop you from inferring what his other beliefs and feelings on the matter, but however convinced you may be about the truth of those inferences, your assumption that he believes insulting things about you is not the same as him insulting you, and your deduction that he believes everyone should disbelieve like him does not constitute him imposing his disbelief on you. He's not making those arguments and you are out of line in attacking him for arguments he's not making but you assume he wants to make.

Rather than doing a big multiquote, I want to just paraphrase your other points. I'm not trying to straw man you but I may do so inadvertently and I'm sure you'll let me know.

You draw a line between cults and religion, and use that line to defend religion from implications of the May 21st debacle, on the implication that religion does not deal in absolutes and extremes. "Extremes" is a perspective-based word and I don't think it's very useful in drawing a clear line. There are many Islamic doctrines that westerners consider extreme, but I don't think you would label them as a cult. The Bible has many proscriptions that are considered extreme also, such as the often-cited stoning of children who disobey their parents. Is a group of people who takes this verse literally a cult? Many people might consider fasting and celebacy to be extreme, but I'm belaboring the point ... "Absolutes" doesn't really work with me either. I assume you're referring to the very specific proclamation of the date and time of the Rapture. Many religions have beliefs about a day of Judgement or the end of the world. The fact that their claims are vague and unfalsifiable doesn't seem like a good reason to give them more respect and credit. So, I would ask you to clarify this point. What is it about the Family Radio sect that excludes them from the ostensibly more respectable banner of "religion?"

You go on to say that faith is a positive and beneficial thing, not necessarily connected to religion, and I would agree that it certainly can be. There are many aspects of the world that we simply aren't equipped to make rational, evidence-based claims about that are nonetheless very important to have models of to go about our daily lives, and in those cases I think an examined faith is very appropriate. However, as it applies to religion, faith often is ruled by a leader or an individual who we assume possesses truth, be it Harold Camping, The Pope, or the Apostles who wrote the gospels. Unquestioning belief in authorities of this kind is valued and validated in religious communities and that, I feel, is where religions get dangerous. In reading about the aftermath of the 21st, the quote that most made my skin crawl was by a Camping follower named Keith Bauer who said, "I had some scepticism but I was trying to push the scepticism away because I believe in God." This is a man who could have thought for himself and saved himself from this silliness, but didn't because he had been taught that a complete faith and trust in the Church, which he identified Harold Camping as a representative of, was a virtue.

On the specific point of The Bible being fiction, I would point out that there are parts of the book that are patently fictitious in that they do not represent literal truth. The Pope has even said as much about the creation in Genesis. You may not write off the entire holy books of other religions (even I don't and I'm entirely anti-theist) but if someoneone is Jewish, for example, they most likely do not believe that Jesus was divinity made flesh and the only Son of the Father or that the word of Muhammad represents the word of God. To a Jew, those parts of other belief systems are false—fiction—a fairytale. You wouldn't suggest that all Jews believe that Christians and Muslims are stupid, would you?

Thank you, by the way, for making your reply without a single personal attack, direct, implicit or even by association. I really appreciate it.

[Aksannyi]

Re: 21 OCTOBER 2011 Y people panic

I didn't mean to start this. (I kind of see this as my fault, considering I'm the first one who came out with offense.) But while Murphie did not come right out and say, "Your belief system is fiction," it did come off that way, and since I am not the only person who saw it that way, I don't feel like I was wrong in inferring that. Even if it is not what he meant to say. But considering that a lot of people do base their faith off the teachings of the Bible, it's not hard to think "Calling the Bible fiction > Bible is the "textbook" of Christian faith > Calling the Christian faith fiction."

Perhaps that is jumping a little too far for my fat ass to fly, but while he has every right to state that he believes the book itself to be a work of fiction (and I suppose even the religion itself), saying that "everyone should see it as such" definitely does come off a bit preachy and condescending. And while I know Murphie isn't a self-important douchebag who thinks he knows everything, that post came off dripping with "holier than thou," and yes, I realize the pun/irony of that particular phrasing in this case.

Anyway, I apologize for mucking up this thread, though as a religious thread, I suppose if it wasn't me, it would have been someone else. I don't like to be told what I should and should not believe, in general, and while I'm sure Murphie didn't mean to come off as telling people what to believe, it did come off that way.