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  • Egypt

    Good live feed courtesy Al Jazeera; will help give an idea of how things are at the moment.
    Al Jazeera English: Live Stream - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English

    Basic run down of what's happened: 30 years of dictator, people get pissed, dictator's forces are battling protesters in the street, the army is basically sitting on its thumbs.

  • #2
    Re: Egypt

    I more or less take this as a preview of what will happen in Venezuela if people keep playing nice with Chavez.

    I'd love to say this would teach our government to stop backing the wrong people in other countries, but I think I won't set my expectations that high.

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    • #3
      Re: Egypt

      As long as American politics are still dominated by the view that America has to be everywhere all the time keeping the rest of the world in line and generally setting things out to work in our (short term) interests, we're going to keep backing governments with shaky foundations. Many of these, unsurprisingly, are going to be unpopular and collapse; or develop to the point where they are against us. It's one thing to be the president that installed a genocidal maniac as ruler of some poor African country; it's another to be the one who allowed things to fall as they may and wound up with the crazy Islamic Fundamentalist African country, or the 'Now that we have Democracy, we're going to charge reasonable prices for our oil' African country (That being, genocide is pretty much "their problem", anti-Americanism and high oil are "ours"). Both of which are concerns for Egypt, and why the Obama administration is being pretty reserved about everything-- they're going to get blamed, whatever happens, unless Egypt becomes a utopia and things work out ok, in which case they get no credit; with the exception of a few people trying to claim that Obama's pioneering use of social networking to organize people for the 2008 election has changed the face of political organization, etc. etc.

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      • #4
        Re: Egypt

        Been following it on CNN. 5 people dead now, over 800 wounded... shit's getting out of control.
        sigpic


        "BLAH BLAH BLAH TIDAL WAVE!!!"

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        • #5
          Re: Egypt

          I'm going to take Feba's advice and not give a fuck.

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          • #6
            Re: Egypt

            The good news is, Mubarak finally resigned, the bad news is, there's not much of a plan of what happens now, the ugly is that the military is in control until they figure out what to do.

            Now, it's possible that the military sets up a provisional constitution, holds elections, and a non-batshit-crazy government is elected. But even then, they're going to have a democratic governments, which means a bunch of bumbling idiots.

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            • #7
              Re: Egypt

              Originally posted by Feba View Post
              The good news is, Mubarak finally resigned, the bad news is, there's not much of a plan of what happens now, the ugly is that the military is in control until they figure out what to do.

              Now, it's possible that the military sets up a provisional constitution, holds elections, and a non-batshit-crazy government is elected. But even then, they're going to have a democratic governments, which means a bunch of bumbling idiots.
              I don't think batshit-crazy and pro-Islam government can ever be two separate things. Bumbling idiots would be preferable by contrast.

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              • #8
                Re: Egypt

                Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                I don't think batshit-crazy and pro-[Religion] government can ever be two separate things.
                If you're going to be a bigot, at least be a logical bigot and realize how crazy the religious politicians are in your own fucking country.

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                • #9
                  Re: Egypt

                  Originally posted by Feba View Post
                  If you're going to be a bigot, at least be a logical bigot and realize how crazy the religious politicians are in your own fucking country.
                  Or maybe you could educate yourself on Islam. Sharia Law - look into it sometime. When you do, you might see how it would set women's rights, religious rights and human rights in general back several centuries.

                  You think its annoying being an athiest in America? Hoooboy you don't know how good you have it. Try being an atheist, Christian or Jew under Sharia Law. You will be treated like dirt for not believing in Allah, you will be a lesser citizen. And a pro-Islam government wants Sharia compliance everywhere they can get it.

                  Sound fun? How about segregating women from men at work? Forbidding married women from socializing with other men even if its part of their job sounds progressive, right? Then there's chopping off hands for stealing - an oldie, but a goodie.

                  Oklahoma just passed a law forbidding the implementation of Sharia in their state. Not to discriminate against a religion, but because that's why we have the First Amendment in the first place. If we want a true democracy for Egypt, Sharia can't be part of it.

                  But let's say it does become that. What does that mean for Isreal, for example? Basically fucked.

                  America? Well, they'll hate us and we won't be the only ones hated. Its not going to help matters. We'll lose a staging point in the middle east and they could lean on the Saudis to do damage to us via inflated gas prices. With a brilliant leader like Obama preventing our energy independence, that could be a really bad thing. Gas prices could skyrocket and damage our economy all over again, so we need to get back to supporting outselves. Our infrastructure is not sound as it stands right now. We will go down hard if we don't use what we have here in the states.

                  So you see, its not just as black-and-white as you see it. There's a lot going on there and there's more to the aftermath of this. They're not just going to be able to make jobs for 50% of the population now that the evil president is gone. There are no quick or easy answers, but we shouldn't be naive and believe the next people that come to power will be better.
                  Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 02-12-2011, 06:20 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Egypt

                    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                    Or maybe you could educate yourself on Islam. Sharia Law - look into it sometime.
                    From the person who assumes that all Muslims who are religious want to apply Sharia law to all matters in modern life?

                    I'm not saying there aren't governments operating like that, but it's also silly to assume that the same isn't possible with Christianity, given that we've seen it do the very same things. Saying "Muslims = LOVE SHARIA" is as ridiculous as assuming because someone is Christian that they follow Leviticus. There are plenty of perfectly well educated, liberal people of all faiths. And there are plenty of Christian lawmakers (and would-be lawmakers) in the states, voting in policies as asinine as their constituency will let them get away with; not to mention things that primarily find their support in a religious base.

                    Also, you honestly think that Egypt turning against Israel would mean they're "fucked"? There might be another war, but Israel will not allow themselves to be destroyed; and they have the military force (and American special interest backing) to quash their opponents. It's not at all a surprise that it's America saying "no, don't attack Iran directly, we don't want to start anything here", and not the other way around. Israel is not shying away from fights, even with other nuclear or nearly-nuclear powers (and yeah, they've got the bomb).

                    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                    So you see, its not just as black-and-white as you see it. There's a lot going on there and there's more to the aftermath of this. They're not just going to be able to make jobs for 50% of the population now that the evil president is gone. There are no quick or easy answers, but we shouldn't be naive and believe the next people that come to power will be better.
                    You're right, I shouldn't be so naive and assume-- oh, wait, I didn't.
                    Originally posted by Feba View Post
                    the bad news is, there's not much of a plan of what happens now, the ugly is that the military is in control until they figure out what to do.

                    Now, it's possible that the military sets up a provisional constitution, holds elections, and a non-batshit-crazy government is elected. But even then, they're going to have a democratic governments, which means a bunch of bumbling idiots.
                    Come on, BBQ, this is maybe high school level reading comprehension. If you're so offended when college students correct you, try to live up to some kind of standard of reasoning (or more likely, just don't make straw men arguments, they only make you seem like you can't actually debate the point.).

                    Yes, there's a fuckton of problems. Which is only the entire point of the post. "The good news is, he's gone. The bad is that now we don't know what happens [and here are a couple things that could easily go wrong]". I also specifically indicated two groups (military and bumbling idiots) who would probably not lead Egypt down much better a path.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Egypt

                      Originally posted by Feba View Post
                      Also, you honestly think that Egypt turning against Israel would mean they're "fucked"? There might be another war, but Israel will not allow themselves to be destroyed; and they have the military force (and American special interest backing) to quash their opponents. It's not at all a surprise that it's America saying "no, don't attack Iran directly, we don't want to start anything here", and not the other way around. Israel is not shying away from fights, even with other nuclear or nearly-nuclear powers (and yeah, they've got the bomb).
                      Isreal took 6 of them on at once and kicked their asses... don't fuck with the Jews :3

                      Furthermore, lots of people in Tahrir Square praised Christians for being there and protecting their Muslim brothers. Actually, The Muslim Brotherhood has at best a 25% support rating in Egypt - they're not likely to get any real power anytime soon. The sad reality of it though is Egypt is still very much a military dictatorship - the military owns a good majority of the business in the Country, and Mubarak himself was himself a ranking officer before leaving. They enjoy all kinds of privileges & kickbacks in exchange for their support. But the people view them with too much regard to really see the fault in them I think.

                      They're going to have to give up some ground this time around, but you can be sure they're going to do what they can to protect their interests. That's why Mubarak stepped down, they had to have put pressure on him because they knew it was either that, or start opening fire on their citizens thus losing face and support by them and that's the last thing they want happening.


                      How exactly is Obama preventing you guys from Energy Independence? Granted it hasn't been his 1st priority like it should have been but it was one of his promises and he knows he has to make good on that. If does nothing about it by his 4th year, then yes you can harp on him and rightly so.

                      On that note though, I happen to agree with Donald Trump in that the man really needs to just stand up to OPEC already (and China but Trump seems to be the only one with a stomach for that) and to stop arbitrarily raising gas prices. 12 men sitting around a table dictating the price of oil as they see fit, what a load of shit. And like Trump says, notice how every time the stock market does well, Oil sky rockets? The U.S. will never really excel until that connection is severed.


                      tl;dr congrats to the Egpytians for making a stand for what they believe in. It won't go exactly as they want (for reasons outlined above) but it'll certainly get better. Here's hoping that the other protests work out as well (especially in Iran on Monday but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.)
                      sigpic


                      "BLAH BLAH BLAH TIDAL WAVE!!!"

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                      • #12
                        Re: Egypt

                        From the person who assumes that all Muslims who are religious want to apply Sharia law to all matters in modern life?
                        Sharia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                        Seems rather synonymous to me. The Islamic Brotherhood - while perhaps a vocal minority - would like it instated. Part of the problem is there are different interpretations for Sharia, but the larger problem is its inseparable from a Muslim's way of life and how his life affects others.

                        Now, I'm sure we can agree someone believing something different from ourselves is fine as long as you're not imposing your beliefs on others.

                        Sharia, more or less, wants to be its own thing.

                        Let me put it to you this way. Being Amish is doing your own thing, but asking businesses and their policies to comply with Amish beliefs wouldn't mesh well within our society. Not using electricity while Amish are present would be a tad silly and probably not good enough, so they just have to accept that if they step out of their towns and into society at large that that's the way it just has to be.

                        We accept the Amish and respect their beliefs and they have a place in our society. What they are not, however, is above our laws.

                        There are nations in the Middle East where Sharia has to give up a little to government constitutions so everyone can get along, but given the majority is Muslim already, that's hardly surprising. This is probably something Egypt is going to have to seriously look at, though, because they don't have a Muslim majority. Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only places Sharia doesn't give in to a constitution and is interpreted by the leaders. And that interpretation is pretty much absolute.

                        There are places in the other nations that have their own courts for Sharia and some for Jewish law as well. The problem in America would be mostly on grounds of the First Amendment and women's rights.

                        Ever notice how Muslims get upset when images of Mohammad or Islamic text/music make their way into popular cultural works.

                        I'll give you a few examples:

                        South Park
                        Little Big Planet
                        The Fire Temple's music in Zelda: Ocarina of Time

                        There's Sharia mucking around in everyone else's business. Every other religion in the world can be made fun of in South Park, but the second its Mohammad, its a different story. The Fire Temple's music in OOT had to be changed for what sounded like whispers of Islamic texts - seriously, Nintendo had to go back and delay a reprinting, refinalize code in Japan just for that. LBP faced a similar issue.

                        It should be noted that Dante's Inferno was always reviled for this reason, EA just didn't back down from showing Mohammad in Hell when a game version was made, at least not in the US release.

                        So there are limitations on what other people can express about Islam based on Sharia. Speech, music, art and the press would all be affected in many democracies where freedom of expression is critical. Sharia does not play nice in this regard. It's basically telling other people what they can or cannot say even if they don't share your beliefs.

                        Women's rights would see a rather big reset, too. This is extremely problematic, too. Many cultures have moved past fathers picking suitors for their daughters and treating marriage as a transaction. Women are a common sight in the workplace, but under Sharia a married woman talking to a man that is not her husband is seen as promiscuous behavior.

                        And how do you find a workaround for that one unless you make your place of business Sharia-compliant and segregate men and women, among other details?

                        We should be tolerant of other cultures and beliefs, but the second those cultures and beliefs come to impose on others that's where the problems begin. Tolerance doesn't mean we bend over backward to accommodate every little thing.
                        Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 02-12-2011, 11:28 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Egypt

                          South Park DID show in the Super Friends episode, IIRC he controlled Fire or something.

                          But then Comedy pussed out on the recent episode. Parker & Stone weren't going to back down, but the network forced them to fearing the repercussions.
                          sigpic


                          "BLAH BLAH BLAH TIDAL WAVE!!!"

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                          • #14
                            Re: Egypt

                            That's true and the network did back down out of fear all the same, which was the point and why I've lost respect for Comedy Central. Then again how many specials did they give Carlin in contrast to HBO? None, the man dared to speak what he thought. They backed out on Bill Mahar, too. Comedy Central seems more than happy not to offend.

                            The transition is looking a bit more promising for Egypt with the promises to abide by its the peace treaties with Israel and they seem to want to check to see if candidates are legit. They seem serious about instating a civilian government at any rate, but there's no easy answers for the unemployment issue over there and economic recovery - where there is any - is painfully slow.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Egypt

                              I live in a now heavily Middle Eastern (i.e. 'Muslim') neighborhood, which used to be extensively Latino (and thus Catholic), but a long time ago dominated by White people of generally conservative Christian/Protestants persuasion. (The county is still considered to be largely a conservative Christian enclave).

                              Basically, it's a mix now, and people largely leave each other alone; we had one incident at the height of 9/11 fever; haven't heard about anything since. Oh, and an anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian mini-rally every six month to two years or so, which amounts to few banners, family marching (with kids) short distances while holding picket signs, and some car honking with bored looking policemen near by.

                              Can't say I care for Sharia or Christianity, but really, even the cultist two blocks away largely don't bother anyone. (The Mormons were a bit annoying, but they don't get angry when you slammed the door on them. And, they stopped coming anyway.) Not to say Sharia or Christianity are problem-free doctrines, but let's not overblown their importance, either--it is ultimate people in power who will attempt to set the rules and enforce them, and the character of those people count more than their creed.

                              * * *

                              The Muslim Brotherhood is likely to take disproportion amount of power at first--it is one of two pan-national, organized force in Egypt right now (the other being the military). That doesn't mean it will remain the only civilian power in Egypt--it just means it may take sometime for pluralistic democracy to take root and other credible political parties to form up. And, as much as it would want to replace existing laws with its own Sharia inspired version, I doubt it would be unmindful of popular anger that would create.

                              Just think of it as two steps forward, one-and-a-half back. You know, like natural human progress.
                              Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                              yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                              Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                              leaving no trace in the water.

                              - Mugaku

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