So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

[DakAttack]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

Clearly, you aren't.

Did I say I'm unaware or are you putting words in my mouth?

[cidbahamut]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

Good job Dak, you've killed the thread.

[Ketaru]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

You have been trying to make the argument that second hand smoke presents a threat that people should be concerned about. My point is that to the average American, the danger posed by second hand smokers is around the same level as the danger posed by sunshine, which I don't think anyone is rationally all that concerned about.

The average American can also avoid smokers in most situations. Most respectable businesses make it a point to have a no-smoking indoors policy and have a designated smoking area that you willfully place yourself in.

With all this nonsense about a far more avoidable danger, I'm personally disappointed we don't do more to curb noise pollution, since that's actually harder to avoid. You can't walk into a coffee shop without your voice being drowned out by music that is too loud and most certainly doing damage to your hearing.

Each year about 3,400 non-smokers die of lung cancer realted to second hand smoke. Second hand smoke also causes an estimated 46,000 deaths per year related to heart disease in non-smokers.

...


Admittedly, I misunderstood slightly YM's message, but my point still stands. If he's going to shrug off the statistics because he's decided they're insignificant, then, in his opinion, killing people through other methods just as acceptable if the mortality rate is judged as just as insignificant?

How did they study that? Did they get a sample of non-smokers, put them in a room with smokers, and a sample of non-smokers in a smokefree area, and count how many of them kick off? 3,400 non-smokers died of lung cancer huh? What was the sample size? It's deceitful to say 3,400 non-smokers died because of second hand smoke without saying how many people were in the study altogether. Those 3,400 could've died of anything really if you don't know how many of, say, 100,000 people were exposed to second hand smoke compared to how many that weren't.

Did they account for socioeconmic status? How about where the study was performed? Those numbers in your link could've gotten cancer from toxic waste for all we know. How about how much a person smokes? Or did they just lump all of the 1-every-few-dayers in the same category as the chain smoking uncles?

We can shrug off your statistics because statistics only suggest a trend. To say definitively that secondhand smoke causes death is poor journalism and a misunderstanding of what statistics actually are. And for every one you cite that suggest second hand smoke is correlated with higher rates of disease, some tobacco company is always ready to cite one that says the relationship between second hand smoke and disease is insignificant.

[DakAttack]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

The average American can also avoid smokers in most situations. Most respectable businesses make it a point to have a no-smoking indoors policy and have a designated smoking area that you willfully place yourself in.

With all this nonsense about a far more avoidable danger, I'm personally disappointed we don't do more to curb noise pollution, since that's actually harder to avoid. You can't walk into a coffee shop without your voice being drowned out by music that is too loud and most certainly doing damage to your hearing.

How did they study that? Did they get a sample of non-smokers, put them in a room with smokers, and a sample of non-smokers in a smokefree area, and count how many of them kick off? 3,400 non-smokers died of lung cancer huh? What was the sample size? It's deceitful to say 3,400 non-smokers died because of second hand smoke without saying how many people were in the study altogether. Those 3,400 could've died of anything really if you don't know how many of, say, 100,000 people were exposed to second hand smoke compared to how many that weren't.

Did they account for socioeconmic status? How about where the study was performed? Those numbers in your link could've gotten cancer from toxic waste for all we know. How about how much a person smokes? Or did they just lump all of the 1-every-few-dayers in the same category as the chain smoking uncles?

We can shrug off your statistics because statistics only suggest a trend. To say definitively that secondhand smoke causes death is poor journalism and a misunderstanding of what statistics actually are. And for every one you cite that suggest second hand smoke is correlated with higher rates of disease, some tobacco company is always ready to cite one that says the relationship between second hand smoke and disease is insignificant.

I linked the article those stats were pulled from, please read it if you're that interested.

I think you overestimate how easy it is to avoid smokers. Regardless of location, they act like it's a god-given right to smoke and they stand pretty much where people typically walk. They don't care that others might be nearby, because they all have the exact same "go somewhere else" attitude about it. But the door swings both ways, because they can go somewhere else if they don't want an earful about it.

[Ketaru]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

I linked the article those stats were pulled from, please read it if you're that interested.

I'm not. The burden is on you to prove the article is credible to all those other people who are interested.

[Murphie]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

For a non-smoker, you seem to have an awful lot of "insight" into how smokers think, and what their motivations are.

Also, so long as it isn't illegal to smoke in a particular spot, they do have the right to do so. Not god-given, but still, the right.

When I smoked, I always went way out of my way to avoid being near anyone else (unless I was with others smokers, in an area designated for said smoking). My roommate would get annoyed with me when I'd insist on crossing the street, because I could see further down the block that I'd be passing a child or something. Smoking around children was an absolute no-no for me. Until I recently quit, I would go to the neighboring parking garage and stand on the top level of it, thus ensuring that I was a good 50+ feet away from any other human being, and also above them, so it would be incredibly unlikely for second-hand smoke to reach them.

I live on the Ohio/Kentucky border, and in NKY you can still smoke in bars and restaurants. When visiting these establishments, I figured that people who didn't like smoke were making a conscious choice to be there, and if a few dozen people were already smoking, I may as well too. Of course, I hated the way I'd smell after leaving. Smoke smell is gross.

[Balfree]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

they already did this in some countries i believe.. i heard someone say they bought MORE smokes trying to get all the pictures as a collection.

[Murphie]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

As I've mentioned, antagonizing or attempting to shame smokers is not a valid tactic. (For helping them to quit.)

[Aksannyi]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

To be honest, I really don't like it when smokers stand right outside the doorway of an establishment. I do have to go through their smoke just to get in the door, so I don't think it would kill them to move over just a few feet so that their smoke can possibly waft elsewhere. This especially bothers me when I have my kids with me, as I certainly don't want them inhaling that crap. Considering the fact that they've already got to go outside, I'm not entirely sure what a few feet is going to hurt.

Not only that, standing right in front of a door is rude regardless, smoking or not. Move the fuck out of the way. I have noticed that a lot of smokers who are exercising their right to smoke and courteously doing so outdoors are often right in the way. It's definitely not an isolated incident, either. Is it that hard to take a few extra steps so that you're A. out of the fucking way, and B. not blowing smoke in my face? And I could deal with one or the other, but dammit, not both.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

There are some people that develop a superiority complex when they quit or just plain don't engage in what they believe to be addictive behaviors.

I can somewhat confirm this, as I do get that way every time I quit an MMORPG.

I mean, I've beaten like over 30 games this year for not playing MMORPGs. This compared to the maybe five I would complete per year with Everquest or FFXI on the plate. That and I get out a lot more often, I've found, because I get exposed to this dangerous thing called "sunshine." Also, "fresh air" and "exercise."

Do I sound condescending yet? Because it feels like my life actually started moving again once I quit MMOs. Its to the point where I do question picking up DCUO. Its going to have to be much more casual for me to even consider strying it.

[Etra]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

How did this topic become a holier than thou discussion?

Oh, that's right, it's the internet.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

How did this topic become a holier than thou discussion?

Oh, that's right, it's the internet.

Cigarette topics do tend to attract the "I don't like it/do it away from me/don't do it far from me/just stop/ban it everywhere/think of the children!/Here, let me warp statistics a bit for you" types.

We know
We know
We know

I'm just tried of the preaching. I know its bad, I don't do it and I don't think I'm a better person for not smoking. There are many other things that can kill me and God knows the world has tried a few of them and nearly succeeded.

I cannot live my life in constant worry and obsession about the things other citizens do with their lives. The only thing I have a right to worry about is myself, family and friends. I absolutely do not care for random strangers telling me what to do, preaching at me to not do things I don't do anyway. I already made that choice, thank you, you can shut up now.

I don't smoke, I don't drink, I recycle, I listen to Smokey the Bear, I practice safe sex, I don't own a gun, I use energy-efficient monitors and light bulbs, I wear bright clothes when I go walking in the dark, I drive the speed limit (mostly), I keep quiet as I can at night not to disturb the neighbors. I don't listen to music too loudly. I don't do drugs and seek vitamin alternatives where prescriptions act as a chemical substitute for what my body really needs.

I have done my best to minimize the impact I make to those around me in terms of health, safety and the environment.

But for some people, its just never enough. They have to come up with more things to tell other people to do and use them as a means of control. I'm kind of tired of it. There is helping people and then there is controlling them. We're well past helping people when it comes to cigarettes. They know the consequences, its been beaten into their heads for over 40 years. The message does not need to become as excessive as it has become.

Cigarette packs don't need more labeling. Its already killed the one thing I liked about cigarettes locally, we once had these neat little dispensers in the artsy sector of my community where the cigarettes had art on them and it changed from month to month. I didn't buy them to smoke them, but because they were collectable.

But noooooooo we had to outlaw cigarette vending machines, didn't we? Its not like kids just casually show up on 4th street at any rate. We go there for the on the fridays they have showings, that's it. There's music, performance art, magicians, traditions of other cultures roleplayed, people having photos and caricatures done.

And yes, heaven forbid, there are people smoking there, too. Who'dathunk?

Should we chase them out? Should we march over to RJReynolds and express our outrage and them making cigarettes? Its just down the street. Its not like there's a ticket to get into this, its just something that happens on the street one Friday a month.

But would it happen if RJR wasn't there? I have to wonder, they own a lot of shit around here, as does the furniture market - without those two kinds of businesses here, we'd have nothing. My town would certainly love to have some other businesses to help create a new economic center. We tried Dell, but it turns out Dell is run by inconsiderate assholes just looking for perks and tax breaks and not to become part of the community.

[Murphie]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

I'll admit that I do get riled when people get in my face about smoking. Because, as I've illustrated numerous times in this thread, I really do my absolute best to lessen the exposure of second hand smoke to others.

I have to emphatically agree with BBQ's post just above mine. Which, I suppose, I've already kind of tried to do in this thread. We get it. Smokers and non-smokers alike.

Aks - I'm with you re: people smoking right in doorways. Or just milling about in doorways in general. It's rude. When I was visiting Washington State, they had a rule where you had to be like, 30ft or something away from the entrance to any establishment. It seriously impacted your ability to smoke anywhere where there might be people. Which wasn't a bad thing, IMO.

I mean, I was always a casual smoker anyway. 5-6 a day or so, maybe a couple more while drinking, or when really stressed out (I burned my hand really bad last year, and couldn't afford to go to the ER, so I just drank a bottle of Two Buck Chuck and smoked to take my mind off the searing pain). Quitting has, so far, been ok. I still get cravings, as I've mentioned, but I can ignore them. But I know how hard it is for people who are heavier smokers (1/2 a pack to multiple packs a day) to quit. Your brain keeps telling you that you NEED it, and it's a difficult compulsion to ignore. I've been channeling my cravings into working out. Some choose food. Some choose another addiction. It varies.

I'm not trying to deny that there aren't inconsiderate and/or outright shitty smokers. There are inconsiderate people of every persuasion. Those people are jerks. But just because someone smokes doesn't mean that they are automatically a worse person (whatever that means anyway). It just means that they smoke. Making everyone else match up with your values makes for pretty frustrating times for all involved. Legislate, tax, educate, parent, but beyond that, let it go.

[Etra]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

They know the consequences, its been beaten into their heads for over 40 years. The message does not need to become as excessive as it has become.

Do they? Because, apparently, some r-tards think Malboro Light = less cancer. Now all cigarettes cannot say light, ultra light, medium, etc. Confuses the hell out of me. There's about three different shades of green for cigarettes now, and somehow customers are supposed to differentiate between them.

Customer: "Yes, I would like one pack of the red Malboro. No, the red. RED!"
Me: "Sir. This is fushia."
Fucking annoying. (And true. Except it wasn't Malboro. It was some other brand I can't think of.)

Sorry. Random rant.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So I wonder what the cigarette companies think of this...

Well, my understanding is that for many its a flavor difference. I mean, its not just one kind of cigarette and they all smell or taste the same. The process for cigar-making is an even deeper art from what I've heard about it.