Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

[Aeni]

... at least in the area of public education.

The end of ACSI v. Stearns | NCSE

^ Sounds like politicking as I would've just sided with the admissions office on this one.

Creationism was prominent in the case. The plaintiffs objected to the university system's policy of rejecting high school biology courses that use creationist textbooks as "inconsistent with the viewpoints and knowledge generally accepted in the scientific community." Michael Behe, a proponent of "intelligent design" creationism, served as a scientific expert witness for the plaintiffs, although his defense of the creationist biology textbooks was unavailing. Wendell Bird, one of the attorneys for the plaintiffs, is a former employee of the Institute for Creation Research; he defended Louisiana's 1981 "equal time" act all the way to the Supreme Court, where it was ruled to violate the Establishment Clause in the decision in Edwards v. Aguillard (1987).

Fine and dandy to have your beliefs but please don't go whining about why a publicly funded university decides to not accept your credits/coursework because it didn't adhere to their standards. It would've set a danagerous precedent had the plaintiffs gotten their way in this case. And if you really want a college education and hold on to your beliefs, there's more than a hundred institutions (accredited) across this country that can give you the same kind of education with a bent towards your religious ideologies.

I think this was some nefarious movement on the part of Christians to try to slither their way in and set policies across this country with their taint and try to "Christianize" this country.

[Neverslip]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

Mind boggling... simply mind boggling.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

Honestly, until the state separates itself from every tier of education this sort of thing will never end, not to mention education will continue to decline. This decision really settles nothing.

Doesn't help that evolution doesn't have an sufficient answer to the origin of life that's based in actual science, either. When pressed on the origin, scientists start to sound every bit as kooky as the Creationists they seem to so passionately distrust. Some say it happened when lightning struck a protien, or that bacteria somehow formed around crystal or that our planet was seeded by visitors from another world. For each one I hear, God starts to sound just as valid as anything else.

As such, I don't know where the scientific community gets off for being so discriminatory.

The whole point of science is to ask questions and use a scientific process to answer them, the point is not to discriminate against what the question is. Furthermore, another problem with the issue is that Creationism is somehow associated exclusively with Christianity by assumption, failing to include Islam, Judism, Mormonism and others.

So its not like its one religion that's behind Creationism/Intelligent Design. They're not vying for an endorsement of one religion because Intelligent Design is not supported exclusively by one religion. They are just scientists of different faiths that want to pursue science without having adhere to what is quite honestly an incomplete theory.

That's the other thing, they feel the theory of evolution is incomplete, not that its totally bunk. And that's what infuriates the scientific community because they want their doctrine of Evolution to be absolute. That sounds like an endorsement of religion if I've ever heard one.

[Aeni]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

The whole point of science is to ask questions and use a scientific process to answer them, the point is not to discriminate against what the question is. Furthermore, another problem with the issue is that Creationism is somehow associated exclusively with Christianity by assumption, failing to include Islam, Judism, Mormonism and others.

Creationism cannot be discussed seriously without bringing the whole religion into the debate. You cannot have just one part of a religion and then use that as a basis for education. To me, what you are inferring to is selective reasoning. That is not ideal and that does not conform to the current education system and the goals set out by educators. In this same vein, you do realize that there is no way to settle the issue of creationism as an alternative method of explaining certain things without favoring one religion or another. You're not advocating an open system. Rather, you're advocating fragmentation. The system isn't failing. Society is.

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

FYI, I'm not against religion nor am I against people who have their beliefs, whether reglious based or based on any other ideology. However, I dislike organized religion and I believe there is only room for one in this country, as big as it is. It's called the Federal government.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

. . . meanwhile, us sane albeit religious folk have accepted a long time ago that it is very likely that God may have just made an evolving world after all. Not like it or anything else that we discover to likely be the case with science would be beyond the capabilities of, well, omnipotence . . .

[DakAttack]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

I believe the Flying Penne Monster created the world by accident, because he's a giant idiot, thus I subscribe to unintelligent design. TEACH IN SCHOOLS NOW PLEASE.

[Armando]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

You mean Flying Spaghetti Monster, you heathen.

[Aeni]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

I subscribe to the religion of bacon. Believe in bacon or GTFO.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

I believe in Bacon, but Bacon has not shown itself to me in a long time. I am starting to lose my faith in the almighty Bacon.

Goddamn - er, Bacondamn - I'm hungry.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

Bacon is the devil.
Bacon wants to clog your arteries.

[quote]

. . . meanwhile, us sane albeit religious folk have accepted a long time ago that it is very likely that God may have just made an evolving world after all. Not like it or anything else that we discover to likely be the case with science would be beyond the capabilities of, well, omnipotence . . .

I just like the way Sherlock Holmes and Mr. Spock always put it:

If you eliminate the impossible whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Then there's the old joke:

Man: God, what's a million years to you?
God: A second.
Man: God, what's a million dollars to you?
God: A penny.
Man: Can I have a penny, Lord?
God: In a second.

[DakAttack]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

You mean Flying Spaghetti Monster, you heathen.

You're quite mistaken, which is a consequence of not teaching my beliefs in public schools! PLEASE PURCHASE TEN THOUSAND COPIES OF FLYING PENNE MONSTER: GLORY OF EMPTY CARBS, FIFTH REVISION, NOW PLEASE.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

I'm mystified by how this thing ever got to court. Students failed to meet the education requirements for admission to the university therefore they didn't get admitted. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Malacite]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

I think this was some nefarious movement on the part of Christians to try to slither their way in and set policies across this country with their taint and try to "Christianize" this country.

Err, just to clarify, the U.S. and the majority of your laws and ideals are based on Judaio-Christian values as the founding fathers were all devout Christians. Even guys like Franklin who weren't (for lack of a better term atm) as "enthusiastic" or pious, about religion still had a solid grounding in it. So I hate to break it to you, but yes you are a Christian nation, like it or not. In fact something like 80~90% of all American adults are Christians.

Just wanted to point that out. And while it may seem somewhat ironic or strange that they would have put something like the separation of Church & State into the 1st amendment, it's not. It actually would have been ironic if they hadn't, given they fled a tyrannical government (for some to practice the most brutal, oppressive form or protestantism but anyways lol) to establish their own free society.


I really just don't understand how people can still defend creationism. I'm not saying you can't believe in God & all that, but how anyone can defend the notion that the Earth is 6000 years old in the face of fossils & other such evidence just strikes me as ignorant & a bad case of denial. Maybe Adam & Eve really did exist, just not in in the exact time frame you're all used to

[Solymir]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

In fact something like 80~90% of all American adults are Christians.

Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

78.5% Christian. Though it does not break it down by age, so not sure if adults have a higher % or not.

I thought for sure the percentage would be lower, but apparently there are a buncha Protestants.

Edit: I found the following map interesting. It shows only two states with a higher than average population of Protestants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Re...s_by_State.PNG

So comparing that with mr pie graph makes me shake my head in confusion. I must be comparing the information incorrectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Re...ted_States.png

[Takelli]

Re: Supreme Court and Separation of Church and State

I really just don't understand how people can still defend creationism. I'm not saying you can't believe in God & all that, but how anyone can defend the notion that the Earth is 6000 years old in the face of fossils & other such evidence just strikes me as ignorant & a bad case of denial. Maybe Adam & Eve really did exist, just not in in the exact time frame you're all used to

I belive that its a little bit of both. How did the world come to be? And don't say big bang theory as where did the stuff for the big bang come from?