How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

[Aksannyi]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I don't really have much to say about the topic at hand, but I just wanted to post and thank BBQ for that post. I don't know how many years ago this was, but I know that the pain of a suicide never goes away, so I appreciate you dredging up all of those bad feelings to post something so honest.

I've also lost someone to suicide - it wasn't someone I was greatly close to, but I know where BBQ is coming from. That post really got to me, in a good way.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I'm too distracted by how 3 students' suicides were used to paint a picture of systemic failure for a large, 40,000+ pupil school district in protecting LGBT teenagers from bullying. All with innuendos and weak logic instead of sound facts and arguments, too.

Suicide rate amongst LGBT youth is higher than the teenager population as a whole. Do we even know that this district's LGBT student suicide rate is in line with the national average or higher or lower? Without that information, how can the writer ethically imply the district made insufficient effort?

So . . . what you're saying is, even in real life, you demand a parser.





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Even if this entire thing is statistically insignificant, that does not change how entirely messed up it is; heck, it would only show how even more messed up everywhere else is!

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

/sigh

What is mess up is that you are so moved by the lines about some LGBT teens may feel they having nowhere to turn, but fail to recognize how universal that feeling is for troubled teens in general. In a sad way, they aren't really all that different than other suicide teens.

* * *

So . . . what you're saying is, even in real life, you demand a parser.

Damn right.

(And, each sampling method's shortfall should be documented as well.)

* * *

Have you ever seen a teen making the one desperate attempt at making a connection with another human being, in a desperate struggle to ward of that feeling of desolation and impulse of self destruction?

I have. And, I failed to recognize it then.

Maybe that lingering regret is why I'm so harsh on the less-than-insightful treatment of teenage suicide in the article; this topic is unavoidably personal to me.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

What is mess up is that you are so moved by the lines about some LGBT teens may feel they having nowhere to turn, but fail to recognize how universal that feeling is for troubled teens in general. In a sad way, they aren't really all that different than other suicide teens.

No, not really. What I'm more concerned with is that even after these deaths, there are still people that are tastelessly opposing any effort to try and do anything about it, and are, in fact, promoting efforts that would, if anything, push things further in the wrong direction.

I recognize that such horrible self-destruction is the same when done by any troubled person, but that hardly justifies throwing even more fuel in to the fire for any group of such people.

But forgive me for trying to sympathize. I'm clearly the inconsiderate party at hand.

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Man those are some disgusting fucking people. And hey, guess what, because I'm feeling fiesty, I'll go ahead and lump BBQ in with that. Because yeah, suicide is fucking terrible, and awful, and just a really really horrible thing. But THIS particular situation involved gay kids who killed themselves, so it's kind of the focus of the entire situation. LGBT may sound like a silly acronym, but that doesn't give you free reign to make light of the situation or accuse the organization of trying to further an agenda just because the kids are gay.

And before you get all up in my shit about being insensitive, go fuck yourself. Gay kids have one of the highest rates of suicide among teens (if not the highest). Why? Because they feel like they have no other way out. They live in primarily religious, rural areas, where everyone, be it their parents, friends, teachers, or the church that they were raised to think is the safest and most forgiving place for them, tells them that what they are is wrong. What they ARE. I mean seriously. They have a really hard way to go. So it's kind of important to focus on the fact that these teens killed themselves because they were gay. It's important for a gay rights group to get all up in this situation, because that's what they are there for. And it's just a damn shame that these kids didn't know about this, or didn't feel comfortable reaching out to a gay group for support before they killed themselves.

My best friend, who is really more of a brother to me (hell, his family has treated me as one of their own for the 14 years I've known him, which is more than I can say for my shitty family), lost his cousin to suicide. Why did he kill himself? Because he was gay. He was 18 years old, and his (immediate) family, his church, his peers, all made him feel as though there was something inherently wrong with him. And when it happened it devastated his family, because outside of his piece of shit parents, the rest of us? Totally cool with the gay. His parents have since come around on it, but that doesn't in any way erase the sense of shame and loathing they must feel for themselves because of what happened. And it doesn't in any way diminish the rage and frustration the rest of us felt (and still feel) because this was a preventable situation.

Yes, a lot of people who kill themselves are also depressed. I'll bet BBQ wouldn't be all up in arms about an anti-depression group (if such a thing exists) being up in arms at this situation. But because it's gay kids, and because he's a terrible human being, it's something to make "it sounds like a sandwich" remarks about. You know who is depressed a lot of the time? Gay kids. Why? For the reasons illustrated a number of times by people in this thread.

You'd think this would be a pretty straightforward thing. Gay kids feel like they have no way out and kill themselves. In reaction, gay group makes a fuss. In retaliation, to somehow make themselves feel better, or because they are just terrible people, anti-gay group makes a counter-fuss. If that's not an example of people being awful, I don't know what is.

Divert the topic to whatever you like, but that doesn't change the reality of how awful this particular situation is.

[Etra]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

My mother didn't it take it well at first. I didn't take the shove towards church well, either.

Knowing what I know now, I would of just said, "Fuck you all. Deal with it." However, most people don't have that luxury. I'm also quite astonished at BBQ's lose for sympathy on the subject. You really have no idea what it's like dealing with something like this. With that in mind, I don't feel the need to explain. You either understand why it's one of the most, if not the most, socially stigmatic curse for a teen -- or you don't. Even in adulthood it sucks (kind of a funny story just popped into my head for this.)

Oh, and not all churches are evil and hate the gays. Some embrace them, but more often than not... They don't. Pity.

By the way, it's LGBTQ. ;]

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I'm gay and even I am not sure what the Q is for. Wait, is it Questioning? That is probably it.

And I was lucky. When I was a gay teen my father beat the hell out of me until I was hospitalized for it, and my mother just watched, while silently crying or whatever (because that's helpful), and my siblings mocked me for it. But thankfully my friends were awesome about it, and I asked around and found an awesome gay youth group where I made really cool friends and came to terms with how shitty my family was about everything. Thankfully the church never came into it.

Also, I was never picked on in school for it, because puberty hit, and I looked as if I could have beat the shit out of anyone who dared. Not that I would have. But I'm not going to deny being glad that I at least appeared to have the ability.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Well, we're definitely glad that we have you around, Murph!

[Feba]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I'm gay and even I am not sure what the Q is for.

This is a subject which needs more study. Homosexualogy. Oh yeah, baby.

[Etra]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

This is a subject which needs more study. Homosexualogy. Oh yeah, baby.

I demand group surveying!

Edit: Oh, and yeah, the Q is for questioning. haha

[Ziero]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Maybe, but the article rubbed me the wrong way because it focused solely on the political maneuvering while completely omitting the story of the person who committed suicide.

...because the intention of the article was to highlight the political maneuvering that stemmed from the suicides, not the suicides themselves.

Suicide rate amongst LGBT youth is higher than the teenager population as a whole. Do we even know that this district's LGBT student suicide rate is in line with the national average or higher or lower? Without that information, how can the writer ethically imply the district made insufficient effort?

Wouldn't that be even more of a reason to have programs to help the lgbt kids when they're being bullied? Especially if teachers themselves are involved?

I'm all for taking a bit of school time to talk about sexual orientations (esp. in this hyper-sexed society we live in), but it's naive to the extreme to think something like that would directly prevent suicides amongst the LGBT student population.

...except that's not what's being suggested. What's being suggested is to instill programs to help prevent and deal with bullying and the kids who are 'victims' of it regardless of their actual sexual orientation, not programs to discuss sexual orientation.

What is mess up is that you are so moved by the lines about some LGBT teens may feel they having nowhere to turn, but fail to recognize how universal that feeling is for troubled teens in general. In a sad way, they aren't really all that different than other suicide teens.

Except the programs the LGBT people want to promote would also be extended to kids who aren't LGBT.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

Wouldn't that be even more of a reason to have programs to help the lgbt kids when they're being bullied? Especially if teachers themselves are involved?

To begin with, let's not exaggerate the degree of teacher involvement in the bullying overall; it was two teachers who made gay jokes about one straight student. That's two teachers, not half of the teacher population. As far as I can tell, the two teachers were disciplined (though not fired), and both went on indefinite, voluntary unpaid leaves. i.e. Those two problems teachers are gone. (Source 1 2)

(By the way, that student was harassed/bullied not in regular school, but in "Secondary Technical Education Program", an extra vocational program. Source.)

Are there other problematic teachers? Most likely, but there's really no evidence one way or another that this particular school district has higher concentration of homophobic teachers than other school districts.

Second, just doing something doesn't mean that something will be useful; just look at D.A.R.E. and its over a quarter century of ineffectiveness. Before inviting in groups which may or may not have the correct expertise to run more programs (which costs kids time studying school subjects, by the way), you should also note that the school district did "beef up discipline against harassment"--it's not like it's been doing nothing in response.

Is what the district has done enough? Well, does any of us know what changes exactly it has made? Think that's something we should find out before before we jump in and scream "You're doing it wrong!"

...except that's not what's being suggested. What's being suggested is to instill programs to help prevent and deal with bullying and the kids who are 'victims' of it regardless of their actual sexual orientation, not programs to discuss sexual orientation.

Did you read the article? The 2009 school policy in question:

Teaching about sexual orientation is not a part of the District adopted curriculum; rather, such matters are best addressed within individual family homes, churches, or community organizations. Anoka-Hennepin staff, in the course of their professional duties, shall remain neutral on matters regarding sexual orientation including but not limited to student led discussions.

Supposedly, that's the reason why the district has declined offers from some (unamed) LGBT groups, and this policy was faulted. That, was what I was responding to.

Except the programs the LGBT people want to promote would also be extended to kids who aren't LGBT.

It's obvious that anyone running any anti-bullying program would want to reach all the students--it's a given that you want to alter the attitudes of the bullies, the victims, and the bystanders. I don't think I've implied otherwise.

What I was doing was chiding YM for seeing the tree while ignoring the forest when it comes to bullying in school by myopically focusing one sub-population; I've no idea how you managed to read that into thinking I somehow think someone would be concocting such a silly thing as an anti-bullying campaign reaching out only to LGBT students.

* * *

I understand the good intentions of those groups who want to go into schools and add educational programs to address problems like bullying, discrimination, drug abuse, etc. However, I don't think most of them are terribly effective.

[Murphie]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

He said "teachers were involved" not "half of the teachers." I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager if even one teacher in my school had been involved in bullying, I'd have been far less inclined to trust any of them.

And making gay jokes about anyone, be they gay or straight, is wrong. Except Feba. I make gay jokes about him all the time. But we're cool like that.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

He said "teachers were involved" not "half of the teachers."

His actual wording was "teachers themselves are involved"--without any qualifier, which made the situation seemed far worse than what it was, IMO.

I didn't mean to put "half of" in his mouth, though; just wanted to force people to think with qualifier/quantifier instead of painting the teachers in that school district with a single broad stroke.

And making gay jokes about anyone, be they gay or straight, is wrong.

For now.

I hope we can evolve to a society in which this won't be such as big deal anymore--not because it's OK to hurt people with words, but because no one would make such jests with malice.

[Feba]

Re: How Inconsiderate Human Beings Can Be Truly Knows No Bounds

I make gay jokes about him all the time. But we're cool like that.

I do like the cock-girls.