Wave of Muslimphobia?

[Rodin]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Saying that religion is responsible for already insane people is about as asinine as saying Doom, Quake, or freaking Mortal Kombat is responsible for already insane people. Both cases, people want to attack a scapegoat, especially if the already insane person had also already killed themselves in the process.

I'm not saying that religion made anybody insane. I'm not saying Islam hijacked 4 planes, and flew 3 of them into buildings. I'm not saying that we should go to war against a religion. What I am saying is, and I will say this as loud as I can. A GROUP OF PEOPLE, WHO CLAIMED THEIR CAUSE WAS THE FUNDAMENTALS OF ISLAM, ORCHESTRATED THE WORST TERRORIST ATTACK ON THE UNITED STATES SINCE PEARL HARBOR, AND HAS SINCE PAINTED A SINISTER FACE ON WHAT IS TRUTHFULLY A PEACEFUL AND INNOCENT RELIGION. WHICH AMONG OTHER REASONS, HAS RESULTED IN TWO, DECADE LONG WARS AND THE DEATHS OF THOUSANDS MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE. That's the point I'm trying to get across, I'm not trying to turn an entire religion into a bunch of bloodthirsty savages. Now imagine this. What if we built a gun museum right next to Virgina Tech? People have the right to bear arms, it would be fair, and politically correct to have it near the site of one of the worst school shootings in American History, but it's INSENSITIVE. Why should the gun owners have to suffer, because of what one disgruntled student did? In fact, while we're at it, why don't we open a museum dedicated to Western Expansion right next to an Indian Reservation? Let's make a huge exhibit about the Cherokee Trail, that plays a huge part in our history. Americans have the right to know about their past. But wouldn't it be INSENSITIVE to the people on that reservation?

Yes, it is insensitive to the religion of Islam that they have to suffer for a deplorable act. But don't you think the person who planned this is stirring up an ulterior motive? How can any person of average...wait, let me rephrase that, ANY LEVEL OF COGNITIVE THOUGHT, think that building it would be a good idea. The only thing that this is going to bring is more separation, bad feelings, hatred, and misunderstanding.

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 PM ----------

It's like you're reading my mind.

Here's where you're wrong. Insanity can be defined as the inability to comprehend rational thought. The hijackers meticulously calculated and coordinated the attacks. They were thinking very clearly, because it was their belief that it was the right thing to do. They were in sound body and mind when they carried out their attacks. Insanity (the term in general) is very misused these days. Somebody who believes something different than you can be labeled insane. It's more of a slur these days, than an actual, accurate medical diagnosis.

[Murphie]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Wow. Bold and Caps Lock. That's...emphatic.

[Malacite]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

As usual, Bill Maher hit the nail on the head the other night on Larry King Live.

I'm paraphrasing here, but essentially "The War on Terror" was yet another in a long line of mistakes. Just like crime, you will never defeat it. It's not going to magically go away if you get Bin Laden, and invade every Arab nation. There's always going to be crazy people driven to violence, using whatever excuse they feel justifies it.

I saw the other day, that the US spends about $500 on the Military for every $1 spent on the civilian effort. This is ridiculous. News Flash: The Cold War ended a long time ago. We're not likely to see any kind of international war between nuclear super powers again, because we all know it would just screw everything up royally to say nothing of the immediate repercussions.

No, the real threat is from home-grown terrorism. Otherwise normal citizens being targeted by terrorist recruiters in e-mails etc radicalizing them and teaching them how to make a bomb in their underwear. Yes, there is some good to the war in Afghanistan, with the women's rights and all being violated by the Taliban but ultimately you just can't force democracy on people like that. They have to want it collectively as a nation, and be willing to fight for it.

tl;dr America needs to gtfo, bring the troops home and have them go to work doing something with immediate, tangible benefits like keeping the damn drug traffickers out of the border. Secure the ports & borders, and take a more active role in educating people and marginalizing these crazy assholes because if a bomb goes off, it's not going to be from a ICBM platform. It's going to be some nut with a suitcase who snuck into a crowded area, possibly even an American citizen.


Need I remind you that the U.S.'s very presence in the middle east eggs these people on greatly. Hint: They're still pissed about the Crusades, and if you need that explained go take a history class.

[Rodin]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Wow. Bold and Caps Lock. That's...emphatic.

Can't really find a way to get what I'm saying across without it getting twisted up. The one thing I hate more than anything else is having my words twisted up and thrown back out in a way I did not say it.

The fact is, Islam in general is such a hot debate, with very passionate people on both sides, that people load words. What's in bold is exactly what I"m saying. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not trying to wage a "god damn war on Islam". I'm trying to combat people's misunderstandings of each other. If you want, I can put my thoughts and arguments into a bullet format.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

ITT: Malacite fails to realize that the War on Terror is just as ineffectual and futile as the War on Drugs.

[NightShayde]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Crazy takes many forms. Sociopaths are nuttier than fruitcakes, but they can also be very smart. When you have sociopaths bent on social control ('cause control over others is fun) telling uneducated people that they need to behave a certain way because God demands whatever behavior they're trying to cultivate -- and if the pawns in the little game have no way of researching alternative viewpoints (and/or no desire to -- especially if they've been taught that questioning is a very bad thing), you're going to find that those uneducated easily manipulated people do what they're told.

It has nothing to do with Islam. It has everything to do with the crazy.

The same thing happens here in the US. You get poor uneducated white trash who drop out of high school because going to school interferes with their crystal meth addiction... and/or because they have to take care of the kids they have when they're 15 (since they've been taught only about abstinence rather than how to protect against pregnancy). You then get the white supremacist whackos telling them that the reason they can't get jobs to provide for their kids is that the darn (insert ethnic minority here) are taking all their jobs. They don't want to believe that they might have trouble getting jobs because they're uneducated drug-addicted lazy-ass kids -- it's all because of the Mexicans or the Blacks or the Asians or whatever group has recently come into town and shown some sort of initiative. Never mind the fact that not a single one of them would be caught dead doing the amount or type of work the minority populations are doing (if they could even do the job in the first place).

Or you get Fred Phelps (or Brian Brown or Maggie Gallagher or James Dobson) blaming the country's woes on gays and lesbians -- only to get their little sheeple all fired up about how accepting marriage equality will be the end of civilization as we know it. The leaders of these movements all claim to be Christian, but their actions show how very un-Christ-like they are.

If you can get the poverty-stricken uneducated masses to feel better about themselves by blaming another group for their misfortunes, you've got it made. If you want to go into battle against whatever group it is, you have a pre-made fanatical army. It has nothing to do with the religion whatsoever -- it has to do with crazy people pretending their aims have anything to do with religion and with the uneducated masses believing the crazy people.

[Rodin]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

ITT: Malacite fails to realize that the War on Terror is just as ineffectual and futile as the War on Drugs.

You could also say that "While the War on Drugs is not 100% effective, Police and Federal Agents do stop the trafficking of Millions of pounds of drugs a year." Using the same logic, that would mean the War on Terror has also stopped many terrorist attacks, but can not stop them all.

You're seeing the glass as half empty.

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ----------

Crazy takes many forms. Sociopaths are nuttier than fruitcakes, but they can also be very smart. When you have sociopaths bent on social control ('cause control over others is fun) telling uneducated people that they need to behave a certain way because God demands whatever behavior they're trying to cultivate -- and if the pawns in the little game have no way of researching alternative viewpoints (and/or no desire to -- especially if they've been taught that questioning is a very bad thing), you're going to find that those uneducated easily manipulated people do what they're told.

It has nothing to do with Islam. It has everything to do with the crazy.

The same thing happens here in the US. You get poor uneducated white trash who drop out of high school because going to school interferes with their crystal meth addiction... and/or because they have to take care of the kids they have when they're 15 (since they've been taught only about abstinence rather than how to protect against pregnancy). You then get the white supremacist whackos telling them that the reason they can't get jobs to provide for their kids is that the darn (insert ethnic minority here) are taking all their jobs. They don't want to believe that they might have trouble getting jobs because they're uneducated drug-addicted lazy-ass kids -- it's all because of the Mexicans or the Blacks or the Asians or whatever group has recently come into town and shown some sort of initiative. Never mind the fact that not a single one of them would be caught dead doing the amount or type of work the minority populations are doing (if they could even do the job in the first place).

Or you get Fred Phelps (or Brian Brown or Maggie Gallagher or James Dobson) blaming the country's woes on gays and lesbians -- only to get their little sheeple all fired up about how accepting marriage equality will be the end of civilization as we know it. The leaders of these movements all claim to be Christian, but their actions show how very un-Christ-like they are.

If you can get the poverty-stricken uneducated masses to feel better about themselves by blaming another group for their misfortunes, you've got it made. If you want to go into battle against whatever group it is, you have a pre-made fanatical army. It has nothing to do with the religion whatsoever -- it has to do with crazy people pretending their aims have anything to do with religion and with the uneducated masses believing the crazy people.

Technically, every humans point of view (including Islam) is a form of social control. Culture is social control. If you're Islam, you believe you follow the word of Muhammad on the path to Allah. If you're Christian, you follow the word of Christ on the path to God. If you're anarchist, you believe nobody can control your actions but you.

The point you're missing, is that they are using the principles of their religion to encite the masses. That is what religious extremism is. So yes, it does have much to do with Islam, and Fred Phelps has much to do with Christianity. Although it's not the entire religion. It caught everybody's attention in the wrong way, didn't it?

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

You could also say that "While the War on Drugs is not 100% effective, Police and Federal Agents do stop the trafficking of Millions of pounds of drugs a year." Using the same logic, that would mean the War on Terror has also stopped many terrorist attacks, but can not stop them all.

You're seeing the glass as half empty.

Of course I'm seeing the glass half empty when resources are being thrown at a problem it such an ineffectual manner.

You can't defeat terrorism with military power, it's rooted in ideas and resentment. More bloodshed and military occupation only cements that resentment for generations to come, to say nothing of overcoming the difference in ideologies.

People want drugs. There is a demand, there is a supply and the two will always connect. Rather than trying to find a way for this to safely happen, we try to stifle it. This accomplishes nothing in the long run. People still get their drugs. You want people to stop smuggling drugs over the border? Then do something about moving the supply closer to home.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

WHAT IS TRUTHFULLY A PEACEFUL AND INNOCENT RELIGION.

Now while I agree that blaming all of Islam for the attacks is asinine, I can not agree with "peaceful and innocent religion". Why? Because man is not peaceful and innocent. There will always be men that will lust for power and one way to obtain that power is by using a religion to their advantage. So while you can say a religion is peaceful and innocent, it no longer will be when man becomes involved in it and manipulates it.

[Rodin]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Of course I'm seeing the glass half empty when resources are being thrown at a problem it such an ineffectual manner.

You can't defeat terrorism with military power, it's rooted in ideas and resentment. More bloodshed and military occupation only cements that resentment for generations to come, to say nothing of overcoming the difference in ideologies.

People want drugs. There is a demand, there is a supply and the two will always connect. Rather than trying to find a way for this to safely happen, we try to stifle it. This accomplishes nothing in the long run. People still get their drugs. You want people to stop smuggling drugs over the border? Then do something about moving the supply closer to home.

Ineffectual is a relative term. Who decides the effectiveness of the resources? You? What if we're actually stopping 90% of all drugs from entering the United States? You're only focusing on that 10% that actually does make it through (i'm making up numbers here, don't quote me). Getting a child to say no to heroine, crack,or meth....to me, that's worth all the resources we can offer.

---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

Now while I agree that blaming all of Islam for the attacks is asinine, I can not agree with "peaceful and innocent religion". Why? Because man is not peaceful and innocent. There will always be men that will lust for power and one way to obtain that power is by using a religion to their advantage. So while you can say a religion is peaceful and innocent, it no longer will be when man becomes involved in it and manipulates it.

Well, that's not the religion's fault though. That is man using the religion to fulfill his own selfish desire for power (AKA Lust, Greed). The true doctrine of Islam values life above all else.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Well, that's not the religion's fault though. That is man using the religion to fulfill his own selfish desire for power (AKA Lust, Greed). The true doctrine of Islam values life above all else.

The end result is all that matters and in the end men will always be involved in religion, it will never be peaceful or innocent.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Getting a child to say no to heroine, crack,or meth....to me, that's worth all the resources we can offer.

Getting the kid to say "no" is very different from seizing drug shipments. One involves destroying the demand for drugs while the other involves attempting to destroy the supply. Guess which one actually matters if you want to shutdown drug trafficking?
The other thing that bothers me about the whole War on Drugs is the presumption that drugs are inherently bad and evil. I've seen both sides of the spectrum of drug use and I cannot accept that propaganda as truth.

[Malacite]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

ITT: Malacite fails to realize that the War on Terror is just as ineffectual and futile as the War on Drugs.

... did you read my post? I was just saying exactly that. RTFM

[Rodin]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Now, now let's not look down our nose at the people back home that keep the country running and support you by paying their taxes. My husband is a retired marine and we have family and friends currently serving. Many of the people here do too and being rather snarky about not agreeing with their opinion doesn't help your cause.

Yeah, I edited it out, cause I thought it was a bit too harsh. But opinions w/o research really do get under my skin.

Getting the kid to say "no" is very different from seizing drug shipments. One involves destroying the demand for drugs while the other involves attempting to destroy the supply. Guess which one actually matters if you want to shutdown drug trafficking?
The other thing that bothers me about the whole War on Drugs is the presumption that drugs are inherently bad and evil. I've seen both sides of the spectrum of drug use and I cannot accept that propaganda as truth.

I don't think all drugs are necessarily bad or evil. I think Marijuana and Psylocibin (sp?) mushrooms (aka, Natural drugs) should be legal. I think that manufactured drugs like Extacy, LSD, Crack, and Meth shouldn't be. I've witnessed with my own eyes, somebody high on meth carve their face with a razor blade. But that's besides the point:

How much of the supply got destroyed?
How many kids said no?
How many people would run drugs across the boarder if we didn't have the DEA?

Have you asked yourself those questions?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Yeah, I edited it out, cause I thought it was a bit too harsh. But opinions w/o research really do get under my skin.

Oops too quick with the quote button, I shall edit my post.