Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

[Caspian]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

If someone can present to me an argument against gay marriage that doesn't have a basis in religion, bigotry, or just plain ignorance, then I'll be honestly surprised. I haven't been before, and I don't anticipate such a surprise anytime in the future.

Cooties, Murphie, cooties.

I think it all boils down to the fact that marriage is none of the government's damn business to begin with. Tax breaks for getting married? Its stupid. And was never something the government was originally supposed to be involved in.

[Feba]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

I think it all boils down to the fact that marriage is none of the government's damn business to begin with.

I agree with this fundamentally, but there's no way on earth you're going to get people to agree to do away with it entirely. Practically, equality is the best solution.

[Murphie]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

Alas, they are, and that's the situation we're in. So working to make things more equal is a good thing.

[Tiponya]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

Well the truth is when it comes to tax breaks for married couples, the richer you are the better. For most Mr. and Mrs. out there, it really doesn't make a huge difference. The main financial and legal benefits of being married are:

Workplace health and pension benefits coverage- Some companies offer health coverage for domestic partners, but that benefit is treated as taxable income. When you're spouse is covered, it's tax free.
Social Security retirement and survivor benefits- A spouse is entitled to half of the other spouse's benefits, and entitled to more (usually all) of the others benefits in the event of death.
Automatic inheritance rights- If you die without a will, your spouse gets half your stuff. In a lot of states, the spouse has legal right to 1/3 to 1/2 of the estate.

Imagine building a life with someone you love and they pass away. If their family didn't agree with the "life style choices", everything you built together could be gone. Sure you can take legal action, but good luck. And even if the spouse has a will and you aren't married, the family can still contest and win. And this happens with gay and straight couples.

But in all reality, if they are consenting adults, more power to them to be happy in marriage. If you don't agree with homosexuality (whether for personal, moral, or religious reasons) always remember: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. As it was stated before: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you really hate it that much and can't deal with it like a sane minded individual, go join Westboro Baptist.

And if you are worried about the cooties, get some Clorox wipes.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

Cooties, Murphie, cooties.

IIRC, that's an argument against hetero marriage.

[Cotners]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

...no it's not.

You guys really like to jump down my throat. If you are going to quote me, atleast read where I put that To me marriage is a sacred union. My opinion is just that, opinion and I realize that. Just the same with you and your opinion, it is not fact, it is an opinion. You may see drive-thru vegas weddings and domestic violence and say marriage is not sacrad while I see couples that have been married 50+ years and say that it is.

[Ziero]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a couple who both work, have similar incomes and file taxes jointly, actually pay more in taxes then a single income marriage?

It seems that taxes alone aren't actually a major factor in any of these issues.

[Cotners]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a couple who both work, have similar incomes and file taxes jointly, actually pay more in taxes then a single income marriage?

It seems that taxes alone aren't actually a major factor in any of these issues.

Filing jointly has a larger exemption than 2 people filing individually.

I think my figures are out of date, but joint exemption is around $8500 while the single rate is around $3500. When you have kids you recieve child tax credits starting at $3000 for the first child and on from there.

[Ziero]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

You guys really like to jump down my throat. If you are going to quote me, atleast read where I put that To me marriage is a sacred union. My opinion is just that, opinion and I realize that. Just the same with you and your opinion, it is not fact, it is an opinion. You may see drive-thru vegas weddings and domestic violence and say marriage is not sacrad while I see couples that have been married 50+ years and say that it is.

But in pointing out all those issues I did, it illustrates the overlying problem that this society as a whole has a skewed view on marriage, especially when concerning homosexuals. For everyone who proclaims "marriage is a sacred union!" in defense of an anti-gay marriage stance (which I'm not saying you have one way or another) they will sit there and ignore other, far more real issues with the state of marriage as we know it today. If marriage is such a sacred union, why are not more people in an uproar over these issues which actually do disparage the notion of marriage, instead of being in an uproar over an issue that could exemplify the state of matrimony?

In other words, why do people make a bigger deal out of two gay people who love each other getting married while ignoring other services and behaviors which actually do trivialize the concept of marriage?

I think my figures are out of date, but joint exemption is around $8500 while the single rate is around $3500.

That's where I'm getting hooked up on, a quick google search around shows more info about a marriage penalty for people who make similar incomes filing jointly then it does about exemptions that only come into play when one partner makes more then the other. Regardless, the issue here is far more then simple tax breaks and modifications.

[Mhurron]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

You guys really like to jump down my throat. If you are going to quote me, atleast read where I put that To me marriage is a sacred union. My opinion is just that, opinion and I realize that. Just the same with you and your opinion, it is not fact, it is an opinion. You may see drive-thru vegas weddings and domestic violence and say marriage is not sacrad while I see couples that have been married 50+ years and say that it is.

Any of that is relevant because? Nothing you've stated here means anything to the argument because the legal marriage is separate from any sacredness that is or is not perceived, religious or otherwise.

You get a marriage license from the state, even if you're married in a church, by a shaman, Tom Cruise or by the leader of Heavens Gate. If you don't, you are not legally married.

[Cotners]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

In other words, why do people make a bigger deal out of two gay people who love each other getting married while ignoring other services and behaviors which actually do trivialize the concept of marriage?

This is a very good question. I do feel strongly against methods of marriage that trivialize the ideal of a sacred union. However this thread was about prop 8 I didn't feel it necessary to bring to light issues such a arranged marriage and drive-thru bicycle weddings. I lived in Las Vegas for a couple years and have seen couples get married in some rather unique ways.

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------

Any of that is relevant because? Nothing you've stated here means anything to the argument because the legal marriage is separate from any sacredness that is or is not perceived, religious or otherwise.

You get a marriage license from the state, even if you're married in a church, by a shaman, Tom Cruise or by the leader of Heavens Gate. If you don't, you are not legally married.

I know that there is an uproar about the legalities of marriage (just getting a marriage license is not marriage) but the homosexual community is largely concerned that there relatoinship is downgraded because they are not viewed as a married couple.

As I said before civil unions still have almost all the rights of a married couple (the difference is so little it's trivial) but many homosexual couples are speaking out because they believe they should be able to be considered part of the ideal that I spoke of. It's more than just monetary and physical, their arguement is also sentimental.

So yes, my arguement is relevant as this would shake the foundations and definitions of a large percentage of the populace.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

So yes, my arguement is relevant as this would shake the foundations and definitions of a large percentage of the populace.

And that's bad because?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

I think it all boils down to the fact that marriage is none of the government's damn business to begin with. Tax breaks for getting married? Its stupid. And was never something the government was originally supposed to be involved in.

This.

And the sad thing is, there are plenty of people that feel that the government should have more presence in our lives. Worse is that they believe the government always does a great job of things, mostly because things seem to be functioning well-enough, so they believe it can't be that bad.

What kind of sexual relationships my neighbor has is none of my damn business and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. The nature of their marriage or relationship is none of my business until they try to impose something on me and my lifestyle. That or they disrupt the lives of their neighbors in some glaringly obvious way.

[Cotners]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

And that's bad because?

Because it is overly intrusive. There has been no right or wrong established in this case. I have a right to my ideals so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others, as does everyone else. The arguement here is who is going to lose the overlapping ground, and for that both sides will continue to porpegate their way of living.

[Mhurron]

Re: Federal Judge finds against Prop 8, Logic wins

As I said before civil unions still have almost all the rights of a married couple (the difference is so little it's trivial) but many homosexual couples are speaking out because they believe they should be able to be considered part of the ideal that I spoke of. It's more than just monetary and physical, their arguement is also sentimental.

That depends on the state, they are not recognized outside of that state, and in many states you can't have a gay civil union either. California was trying to make it illegal for two gay people to be recognized as a couple in the same legal sense that any hetro pair of consenting adults gets. They already have the sentimentality, the government is not needed for that. This is about the legal issues. Your arguments about sanctity have no place here.

Go ahead and tell me this can happen to a straight couple
What Straight Privilege Looks Like: Elderly Gay Couple Separated, Forced Into Nursing Homes, and Robbed By the County of Sonoma – this ain't livin'

So yes, my arguement is relevant as this would shake the foundations and definitions of a large percentage of the populace.

Your moral values and the moral values of others, even if they are the majority, do not trump the rights of others.

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 PM ----------

Because it is overly intrusive.

How does it intrude on you?

---------- Post added at 05:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------

What kind of sexual relationships my neighbor has is none of my damn business and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. The nature of their marriage or relationship is none of my business until they try to impose something on me and my lifestyle. That or they disrupt the lives of their neighbors in some glaringly obvious way.

But you can intrude upon theirs if they're gay. You can say whether or not they can have a legally recognized marriage, simply because they're gay.