Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

[Feba]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

instead you try to dismiss it by labeling people unfairly

I'm hardly labeling them unfairly. I've lived in bumfuck nowhere, and I still travel to it enough to see it first hand. Rural America has very open bigotry. Hell, just compare the slogans on church signs between cities and villages. I'm not saying they're nonexistent in cities, or that cityfolk are better people. They all have their ups and downs. But religious bigotry and silliness is far more prevalent in rural areas, the south, and to a lesser extent the plains states.

When something is too stupid and well-funded to be real, it probably is.

And this is the flaw in your argument. Nothing is too silly for a religion to take up. I say this not as an insult to religion, as there are plenty of ones that keep things sane. I say this because when you believe something is fundamental to the way the world works, or should work, you're not going to go against it. Especially if you have some kind of mental or psychological disorder, or you've been raised in such an environment, as I think we can agree is the case with WBC members. And any time a sect disallows questioning of the principles, leaders, and so on, that will worsen.

In the big picture, WBC isn't even that bad. Is it silly how many people they hate? Sure. But far, far worse things have been done with far sillier views.

Look at any of the number of fucked up human rights abuses happening today in countries governed by Sharia law. It's stupid, and it's well-funded. Look at the Third Reich. The idea that extermination of the Jews and other unwanteds would improve the world. Stupid, well-funded. Intelligent design. Stupid, well-funded. Colon cleansers. Stupid, well-funded.

Being incredibly stupid has absolutely nothing to do with how much money a group can own, produce, or raise. Look at Apple, pretty much every clothing store you'd find in a shopping mall anymore, American Idol. And anyone who's been to an area of the world where this sort of religion-fueled stupidity is common, like the rural US I mentioned, wouldn't have a hard time believing that WBC is a real group that actually believes all of this.

I know you like to jump at conspiracy theories, BBQ, but Occam's Razor is the far more likely situation here. WBC seems incredibly stupid because WBC is incredibly stupid. That's all there really is to it.

[Malacite]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

Colon cleansers. Stupid, well-funded.

LOL, they actually work quite well (or so I've heard from health nuts) particularly in conjunction with these new Acai berry meds.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

I've lived up north, out west and lots of places in between. Its not that different- only the pace at which people like to live seems to change. Bigotry seems to exist equally in each place I've been to and is often most deftly used by people that want to believe they're not bigots at all.

Sorry, you did not live in the rural south for any extended period of time then. The level of bigotry and racism is still high there.

[Icemage]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

Sorry, you did not live in the rural south for any extended period of time then. The level of bigotry and racism is still high there.

Speaking as a non-Caucasian who has lived in Florida for most of his life and traveled through quite a lot of the Southeast US, this is probably an understatement.

Bigotry isn't just acceptable in some parts of the Deep South - it's a way of life. Most people who live in cosmopolitan areas (particularly out west and in heavily populated parts of the Northeast US) have very little frame of reference. I get by because I live in Florida, probably the least "deep" of the southern states, and moreover I live in a major city. Traveling even to rural parts of my own state requires a quick gut check to make sure my social "shields" are up, though, and going to any state like, oh, Texas requires some soul-searching about whether I want to deal with potential incidents.


Icemage

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

Speaking as a non-Caucasian who has lived in Florida for most of his life and traveled through quite a lot of the Southeast US, this is probably an understatement.

Bigotry isn't just acceptable in some parts of the Deep South - it's a way of life. Most people who live in cosmopolitan areas (particularly out west and in heavily populated parts of the Northeast US) have very little frame of reference. I get by because I live in Florida, probably the least "deep" of the southern states, and moreover I live in a major city. Traveling even to rural parts of my own state requires a quick gut check to make sure my social "shields" are up, though, and going to any state like, oh, Texas requires some soul-searching about whether I want to deal with potential incidents.


Icemage

Oh lord...Texas...

I was lost in Texas on a motorcycle run. I was pulled over by a sherriff for driving irratically. He had a point, I was lost. So he intimidated the hell out of me, then made me do the drunk tests, and then sexually harassed me. We were out on a pretty deserted stretch and he trapped me between the car and him. He had his body touching mine and was telling me that women in Texas don't dress like I was, if they were ladies. Around that time, I heard someone coming and thank god it was a friend. Once he got there, the sherriff was trying to press the issue so he put me in cuffs and said I needed to have a blood test to make sure I wasn't drunk. With my friend there I became bold and told him to go right ahead because I don't drink and then I can press charges for harassment. My friend chimed in that he couldn't see the light of day between us as he approached so those would be sexual harassment or maybe assault charges. The sherriff was none too happy but let me go. He also whispered to me that my friends and I better never be in his jurisdiction again. Ya....I try not to go to Texas as much as possible.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

What the fuck is wrong with people?

[DakAttack]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

Don't sexual harassment with Texas.

[Feba]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

they actually work quite well

No, they don't. Never listen to health nuts*, they're like cult members, only instead of screwing up themselves and selling flowers at the airport they power a multi-billion dollar industry that's gotten into every convenience store, drug store, and supermarket in the country, marketing products that don't work and frequently cause harm.

Colon cleansing as an example. The entire idea is that it voids your bowels. Well, I've got some news for you: That's what your fucking digestive system was designed to do. Whether you believe that it's the result of millions of years of evolution or you believe that a Zombie Jew who is his own Baby Daddy did it, the point is that bowels have evolved to the point where they're able to take a crap without assistance. If you have medical problems with constipation serious enough to require treatment, see a doctor. If not, colon cleansing offers you no benefits.

* Yes, there are bacteria in the colon. They're supposed to be there! They're helpful. They're good for you. Remember the whole good/bad bacteria thing? These are largely things that help your body. Removing them is not good
* You know what colons weren't designed for? Being filled with water through a tube. Shoved up your ass. This can cause irritation to say the least, can eventually lead to permanent damage. Even to the point where you require enemas to help you defecate.

These are just some of the stupid things health nuts don't tell you, because they don't read in depth on what they do. They read maybe the advertising and craze, maybe some other people's reactions, but they don't look at the science (and lack thereof) behind the products.

As for Acai, I'm just going to quote wikipedia:

Marketers of these products make unfounded claims that açaà and its antioxidant qualities provide a variety of health benefits, none of which has scientific confirmation to date. Quackwatch noted that "açaà juice has only middling levels of antioxidants—less than that of Concord grape, blueberry, and black cherry juices, but more than cranberry, orange, and apple juices."

Furthermore, the extent to which polyphenols as dietary antioxidants may promote health is doubtful. No credible evidence indicates any antioxidant role for polyphenols in vivo,[8][9] but rather in minute concentrations, they may affect cell-to-cell signaling, receptor sensitivity, inflammatory enzyme activity or gene regulation.[9][10] Specifically, there is no scientific evidence that açaà consumption affects body weight or could promote weight loss.[1]

Honestly, even Wikipedia has an explanation for why these things don't work and are frequently dangerous, let alone the things you find with real research.



*When I say health nuts, I mean people who are following diet trends, supplements, miracle plans, machines, etc. etc. Few work, many are dangerous, all are scams. "I go to the gym every day and eat 5 reasonably portioned meals a day" people aren't health nuts, they're just in good health.

Bigotry isn't just acceptable in some parts of the Deep South - it's a way of life.

Oh, and this reminds me. Anyone who doesn't think that some parts of the US are far more open to bigotry than others, just take a damn look at Arizona. Whatever you think of states' rights to enforce immigration laws, the whole "Cops have to arrest anyone who maybe seems to be Mexican, but they can't do it because they look Mexican!" and "Cops who don't do this can be sued" portion is just fucking nuts. As a US citizen, I will not be entering Arizona so long as this law is in effect, for two reasons:

1- As protest
2- Far more importantly, because it is a huge threat to my constitutional liberties. As someone who is half-latino and has a funny accent, and who rarely carries ID when he won't need it, who's to say that I won't be detained for suspicion of being an illegal immigrant? What is there that makes me more "American" than anyone with a Mexican accent? I know some fine Americans of Mexican descent, my best friend was born in the USSR. What's to keep them from being arrested? It wouldn't be surprising if someone thought they were immigrants, since they are, but they're perfectly legal.

Now, I've only been to Arizona three or four times, and I don't have any plans to visit any time soon. I did plan to move there for a time though; that is now completely out. And these circumstances apply to millions of Americans; we're a nation of immigrants. Many of us came here after we were born, as my friends have, and many of us are first or second generation, as I am. And we're all targets if I step into that state.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

*When I say health nuts, I mean people who are following diet trends, supplements, miracle plans, machines, etc. etc. Few work, many are dangerous, all are scams. "I go to the gym every day and eat 5 reasonably portioned meals a day" people aren't health nuts, they're just in good health.

My daughter is notorious for thinking all that crap works. I always tell her that if there were a pill or machine out there that miraculously worked, then we wouldn't have so many overweight people. People that believe in all that crap really irritate me.

[Malacite]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

My daughter is notorious for thinking all that crap works. I always tell her that if there were a pill or machine out there that miraculously worked, then we wouldn't have so many overweight people. People that believe in all that crap really irritate me.

Yes you would.

Because money talks.

[Van'derfel]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

One of my sergeants actually almost ran over Fred Phelps. He didn't know who he was at the time though.

[Feba]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

Yes you would.

Because money talks.

So if there were a magic fix all for weight, the people who would be crawling over each other trying to get their hands on it wouldn't be a financial motivation, but our "want people to be fat overlords" (?????) would keep it from getting to market?

This is another of the dangers of the health nuts-- they promote distrust of medical science. Even where their cures aren't directly harmful, they encourage people to delay professional medical aid, and to not believe it when they do seek it. The idea that there's some cure out there that "they" don't want you to know about.

If there is a hidden 'cure all' out there, it's exercise. Exercise has been shown to improve goddamn near everything; weight loss, depression, sex life, cardiovascular and digestive health, and it does a lot to ward off future disease. There are two major reasons it's not as popular as it should be: One, it takes effort. Two, a lot of marketing out there is trying to tell people that you don't need to put in effort. This section of society has had huge impacts on the rest of it, by trying to sell fitness as something you buy instead of work for. People think they can buy some supplement or machine that will melt away the pounds with a fraction of the time and effort. If they actually put in the effort, they quit quickly because they've been deceived into expecting pounds to go away at some incredible rate that simply won't happen for most people using safe, sustainable weight loss methods (and yes, I know I'm generalizing somewhat here, but let's face it: %90 of Americans are interested in weight loss far more than actually being healthy).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

As someone who is half-latino and has a funny accent, and who rarely carries ID when he won't need it,

There's never an excuse to not have your ID on you when you go out into the world. I don't care who you are or what your reasons may be.

What's next, not buckling your seatbelt in the car?

Also, the situation Arizona law is a bit more complicated that your Occram's razor would be willing to admit.

(1) The US and Mexico both do a pretty shit job of border control
(2) Drug lords bring their feuds over the boarder, threatening both our citizens and the illegals they entangle.
(3) For example, they'll kidnap people and use them to smuggle drugs into America and then leave them high and dry.
(4) That's not counting the ones brought over for prostitution
(5) And then they kidnap and murder citizens, too
(6) And that's not counting the ones that aren't involved with that at all, just here for jobs
(7) Few of those have worker's permits, but oh, placement agencies cream their pants when they see an illegal.

Most of us are just frustrated with #6 an #7, even if you're a legal citizen of latino decent, you're fucked over by these guys. If you're an immigrant that busted his ass and learned english to be part of this culture, the very notion of Amnesty for the illegals is a slap in the face.

Its a very, very complicated issue. Its not like those Cubans Castro dumped on Florida - those were people without a country, they were exiled and not welcome back. They had to get amnesty.

And yeah, some have come over and had kids here, that's one of the complexities. That's a harder case to deal with. If you're born here, you're technically American. I was born in Canada, my parents are American, it would sort of suck if they had to leave me in Canada and go back so I can kind of see the problem with deporting Mom and Dad here.

So I think we all know there's some real work to be done on this issue. The tricky part is getting the goverment to do anything about it. The point of the Arizona law was to tell Washington "Hey fuckheads, do something. This is your job." The law simply mirrors the federal law. Police officers don't get any additional powers they didn't have before. If you were suspicious now, they call the federal officials. If they law goes into effect, they can only do that same thing.

Again, the point was to get Washington's attention. And it has. Hopefully it amounts to more than just putting it off next year like politicians always do, but even so it already looks like its going to be next year.

[Feba]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

There's never an excuse to not have your ID on you when you go out into the world. I don't care who you are or what your reasons may be.

What's next, not buckling your seatbelt in the car?

How's this for an excuse: I'm an American fucking citizen, and it's my right to leave my fucking house without a government ID on me without being accosted by law enforcement? And I'm not talking 'hurr durr, my way!' rights, I'm talking constitutionally protected backed by Supreme Court judgment rights.

Not carrying my ID doesn't threaten my or anyone else's safety; if my safety is threatened, it is because of unconstitutional law enforcement. It's hardly comparable to buckling up.

But thanks for the approval of treating those of us who don't come off as perfectly white as second class citizens, BBQ. Ooh, I know! Let's just have ID badges that Latino Americans can sow to their clothes to distinguish themselves.

Also, the situation Arizona law is a bit more complicated that your Occram's razor would be willing to admit.

Neither Occam's razor nor my words implied the situation in Arizona is anything less than complex. Occam's razor, and what I said, holds that the simplest explanation is usually correct. That still holds true.

Before I start on the next portion, I want to point out that a complex SITUATION does not make the law itself complex. The law is straightforward: Officers are to detain anyone they believe may be an illegal alien, regardless of the completely unconstitutional nature of detaining someone based on appearances.

Now, as an illustration of Occam's razor, I'm going to give you some examples:

1- The simplest explanation for the WBC's incredible actions is that they're very stupid people doing very stupid things.
2- The simplest explanation for people wanting to immigrate to America is that their homeland is not giving them a good life. The SITUATION of why the Mexican economy is shitty is complex; it involves a lot of shit, corrupt government, organized crime. The EXPLANATION that the Mexican economy is shitty makes people want to come to America is simple.
3- The simplest explanation for illegal immigration is that people want to immigrate (as explained in 2), and do not have a viable legal method to do so. I'll explain in more depth later, but anyone who thinks that America's immigration system is good is an idiot.
4- The simplest explanation for Arizona's new immigration law is that they imposed incredibly racist, backwards, unconstitutional practices because the lawmakers, and the people who support them, are incredibly racist, backwards people who don't care about equal rights protected by the Constitution of the United States.

Again, the point was to get Washington's attention.

If you honestly believe this, then Arizona's law is nothing less than legislative terrorism. It's discriminating against, harassing, and possibly causing legal troubles for American citizens; disrupting the Police force for political gain; and flagrantly ignoring the highest law in the land.

Most of us are just frustrated with #6 an #7, even if you're a legal citizen of latino decent, you're fucked over by these guys.

This is an old argument. Let me direct you to http://www.takeourjobs.org/ . Most people born or lawfully immigrated in America are competing for jobs that these migrants simply never are going to have.

If you're an immigrant that busted his ass and learned english to be part of this culture, the very notion of Amnesty for the illegals is a slap in the face.

No, it isn't. The notion of Amnesty for illegals would be welcomed by many, many immigrants, because surprise surprise, most of us know at least one illegal alien. They're in our communities and culture. Keep in mind that many people here 'illegally' aren't "oh, I swam across the Rio Grande" immigrants, they're "We have a tricky immigration status, and we're going to be deported even though we didn't do anything wrong". And Amnesty has NEVER meant "All illegal aliens are now Americans, enjoy". Amnesty would still involve complex procedures and some sort of naturalisation.

Now for that thing I brought up awhile ago about legal immigration. Take a look at this flowchart for potential migrants, from Reason Magazine: http://www.reason.org/files/a87d1550...458f116079.pdf

A wait time of years with very little guarantee of ever getting anything is not sane or reasonable. And the fact that the kind of 'tilling the farms' migrant workers that people are most angry at would be practically inelligible for EVER receiving a green card if they entered under a permit for that work; which I think we can agree is as honest, righteous, and necessary as any other work under the sun, and probably quite a bit more so than jobs many of us hold.

This is the sort of asinine, slow, and overly restrictive system that encourages people to find other avenues; be they sham marriages, falsified documents, or just plain border hopping. Obviously, we can't just let everybody who wants in in, but there's room for far more immigrants in the US than we have.

There are things we can do. Immigration programs can be targeted to bring people into certain regions; for example, easier immigration for those who intend to reside in a small town. They will melt into society more assuredly than if they started out in a town with a thick immigrant community (not that those are bad), they can provide vital economic support to towns that may otherwise bleed populations into cities at such a rate that they'd turn into ghost towns.

We can take more immigrants; we've had far, far higher levels in the past, and the idea that the US is fully developed is silly. For all of the ethnic tensions in the 19th century, the Northeast is now simply the northeast; introducing more migrants won't change what America is.

But discrimination is bad, discrimination against your countrymen and violation of the Constitution by a state legislature is absolutely unacceptable. It should be amazing that anyone believes this is legal, let alone sane. But racist, bigoted people will approve of racist, bigoted laws.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Our friends at Westboro Church have decided...

How's this for an excuse: I'm an American fucking citizen, and it's my right to leave my fucking house without a government ID on me without being accosted by law enforcement? And I'm not talking 'hurr durr, my way!' rights, I'm talking constitutionally protected backed by Supreme Court judgment rights.

Not carrying my ID doesn't threaten my or anyone else's safety; if my safety is threatened, it is because of unconstitutional law enforcement. It's hardly comparable to buckling up.

But thanks for the approval of treating those of us who don't come off as perfectly white as second class citizens, BBQ. Ooh, I know! Let's just have ID badges that Latino Americans can sow to their clothes to distinguish themselves.

I''m not playing. Put the card back in the deck.

We live in a society that thrives on information and anyone with shred of common sense - black, white, asian, latino, whatever - keeps ID on them. You know, because you might get pulled over for speeding, you might get into an accident, you might get knocked out and need to go to the hospital - anything can happen to you and without your information, less is able to be done in a timely fashion.

Remember how I talk about getting hit by that SUV? Who did they need to contact to agree to airlift my ass from Boone to Winston-Salem, NC? How did they know I should go there? I couldn't tell them, I was knocked out. All they could do is wait for me to wake up so I could sign off on that. And *surprise* who was there waiting for my but my parents? Gee, how did they know about them?

Could it have been my IDs? Despite getting hurtled 15 yards forward, it just happened to be in my jeans.

But let's flip it over, what if I'm the guy that's responsible for the guy getting hit? Oh damn, I don't have my ID on me, officer. I'll totally come back with my driver's license and shit. No, its off to the police station for me if that happens, they'll just take my statement there after pulling up my record.

I don't think they're going to go "Oh, he'll be back, we can trust him"

There are situations we just can't anticipate, which is why we take precautions. An ID, even your cell phone, can be such precautions. A day will come that throws you the situation you can't anticipate. I trusted other people to obey traffic laws, but look how that turned out.

Just saying it for your own good. If you want make things harder than they have to be - because you're an American citizen and its your goddamn right to walk around without ID - then be my guest.

Before I start on the next portion, I want to point out that a complex SITUATION does not make the law itself complex. The law is straightforward: Officers are to detain anyone they believe may be an illegal alien, regardless of the completely unconstitutional nature of detaining someone based on appearances.

Keep on getting wound up over the Al Sharpton version if you want to.

The actual version says officers are to report those they suspect to the federal authorities and they're only to do so if the suspect is involved in an existing case they're working on. That's what the wording of the law implies. It means you'd actually have to do something illegal that gets the police involved.

Like shooting someone, or dealing drugs.

If that makes you want to boycott a baseball or basketball team, okay, I guess. But if you're not going to talk about the actual version of the law, there's not much else to discuss.