Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

[Feba]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

You need him to be flawed so your argument can seem more sound.

No, I don't. He's already flawed for multiple reasons, as I pointed out quite clearly. I was pointing out why he was flawed.

I'd love to know where I stated that I was against gay marriage.

You didn't. I was speaking of your reasoning, whether you agree with it or not. You really ought to read someone's words in context before you try to insult them on it; it makes you look like an idiot. Hint hint, google 'hypothetical'.

Assumed "hatred" of gays is bad, but hatred of people believing in "imaginary people in the sky" is not.

Yep. Gays don't intend to force other people to be gay in any way. People who use an imaginary sky fairy as reason to worsen the lives of others are saying that not only are their opinions BETTER than everyone else's, but that everyone else needs to OBEY them too. Even I'm not that self-centered.


Gays don't want churches to say that what they're doing is 'okay' with their religion. They want the STATE to give them the same legal rights as heterosexual couples. The religious who oppose this, however, want the state to say THAT THEIR RELIGION IS CORRECT, which apart from being a violation of the first amendment, is where they start interfering with the lives (not to mention religions) of others. When gays start demanding that two people who don't want to get married do so, you can start demanding that gays that want to get married cannot.

but remains in world that's seen in black-and-white. He's not lived the grey areas yet.

The only way someone could honestly believe this is if they themselves were so stupid as to see everything in binary terms. If that is the case for you, I'm sorry. Hopefully you'll adjust well, as it's impossible to see the world that way with anything but the most sheltered of lives. Most of my views, philosophically and politcally, are and have been for as long as I have had them in shades of gray. Not because I am intelligent, but because the world works in grays. Same as I learned English because everyone around me spoke it.

[Lmnop]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

Yep. Gays don't intend to force other people to be gay in any way. People who use an imaginary sky fairy as reason to worsen the lives of others are saying that not only are their opinions BETTER than everyone else's, but that everyone else needs to OBEY them too. Even I'm not that self-centered.

The only face of religion you see is assuredly the worst. You've seen radicals, you've seen television, you've seen what media wants to show you. In all of our Hollywood flicks, the religious types are idiots, jerks, or secretly evil. It takes a loud minority to make the majority look bad. It's easy to come in here and start bashing on religion, but if I turn and bash on Atheism, it's a religious argument and the thread gets locked.

Gays don't want churches to say that what they're doing is 'okay' with their religion. They want the STATE to give them the same legal rights as heterosexual couples. The religious who oppose this, however, want the state to say THAT THEIR RELIGION IS CORRECT, which apart from being a violation of the first amendment, is where they start interfering with the lives (not to mention religions) of others. When gays start demanding that two people who don't want to get married do so, you can start demanding that gays that want to get married cannot.

Hmm. I need to talk to more gay people. Didn't we already discern on the last page that married couples get the same legal benefits as domestic partners? If the ceremony is all that's left, that's either going to be conducted secularly or it's going to revolve around forcing churches to open their arms to something they don't believe is right.

So do we have any gays in the house? Can someone give me the scoop of what, exactly, is missing?

[eticket109]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

Just to comment on an older point... Getting married actually severely fucked up my taxes. lol Here's a word of advice if you get married, continue to mark your W-4s as single until you pop out a kid or two.

[Ameroth]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

And the target of blame is, unsurprisingly, a stereotypical target. Assumed "hatred" of gays is bad, but hatred of people believing in "imaginary people in the sky" is not.

I don't believe I evar said I hated people of faith. I did say I have angst (your word) against organized religion and the ignorance it breeds. And lemme re-quote myself, you must have missed it with your blinders on:

However, I would never vote for government sanctioned measures to take away people's rights to believe in whatever asinine religion they want to.

For the most part, I view religion as asinine; that does not translate into me having hatred towards religious people. That in turn would mean I hate my mother, my father, my siblings, my extended family, several people I know personally on a day-to-day basis, and others around me. Despite what you might want to believe, I'm actually not filled with all this hate you think I am.

Go, go "tolerance!" Because voting for a black guy or knowing a gay guy by six degrees totally prevents you from being a bigot in other departments.

And for the record, I did not vote for Obama, and I happen to have a very close friend who is gay. I am pretty far away from the definition of intolerant or bigoted. Just because I don't necessarily like or approve of some choices people make regarding their lives, I see no reason to ban them or stop them unless their choices or actions infringe on the basic rights of others. As someone who is criminalized in this country for burning a plant or eating a certain strain of fungus in his own home, it's pretty hard for me to support laws banning people's right to choose how to live their own life.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

Just to comment on an older point... Getting married actually severely fucked up my taxes. lol Here's a word of advice if you get married, continue to mark your W-4s as single until you pop out a kid or two.

Hubby claimed single 2 all the while our kids were little. When we filed our taxes we claimed married 4. So basically doubled the deductions so during the year they take out more and you get back a nice little bonus and can have some money to play with or invest.

[Feba]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

The only face of religion you see is assuredly the worst.

No. The only face of religion that's involved is what I'm talking about.

Didn't we already discern on the last page that married couples get the same legal benefits as domestic partners?

No, they don't, if it isn't called a marriage. Saying that gays are equal because they have 'civil unions' or 'domestic partnerships' is no better than saying that blacks are equal because they get 'colored fountains', and they just have to ride at the back of the bus.

Separate is not equal.

And for the record, there are plenty of churches out there that would be happy to perform the ceremony; and already have. The problem lies solely in the state, or rather the religious attempting to impose their laws on the secular state.

[Ameroth]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

the religious attempting to impose their laws on the secular state.

Which has always made me question the validity of the first amendment in these situations. Are churches not crossing the line when they take open and public stances against a civil/government ruling? Does the first amendment only apply when it allows them to practice their faith, but not when they take issue with governmental laws?

Has "separation between church and state" ever actually existed or been enforced other than in public schools?

[Feba]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

I believe the church has a right to free speech in political matters; that the first amendment is intended to keep religion out of government in terms of government imposing holy law and having official services, churches, scriptures, and such. That religion cannot be a requirement or consideration in appointment to office. Not that religious leaders are not allowed to be involved in politics, or that people aren't allowed to cast ballots based on religion (not that we wouldn't have a better country for it).


The real question is in the hypocrisy of championing one part of the constitution while ignoring the other. Such as the people who love the second amendment, but have no problem ignoring the first. Or someone who adores the constitution and says it must be followed, until something they don't like comes up, at which point it must be amended. Still, as stupid as it might be for an individual, there's nothing the government can or should do about it.

[Caspian]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

"Separation of Church and State" originally came from a letter from Jefferson to a Baptist church after they sent him a wheel of cheese.
It was originally meant to keep the government from declaring a national religion (like Feba said) and most importantly, keep religion from controlling the government (as was the case with the Vatican and England back then).

[Feba]

Re: Your Local Elections - are you paying attention to them?

Exactly. Religion has a say in government, the same as any other celebrity or artistic work, because even if it were legally separated from the state, you cannot clearly define where art and religion starts. Thus you'd wind up with people claiming arts as religions in order to shut them up, and religions claiming their speech as art in order to gain speech. You'd undermine the law from both sides.

Freedom of and from religion is dependent on the government not being affiliated with a church, because if it is the government is imposing that religion on it's citizens. Unfortunately, that's still the case somewhat throughout the country, however that is a result of churches having a majority of the populace on its side, and not because they have any tangible relationship with the state.