Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

[Icemage]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Saw this elsewhere and thought it would be enlightening.

Sarah Palin on stage and unrehearsed back in June.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k[/ame]

I didn't think there was anyone who thought the US presence in Iraq was a mission from God.

I was wrong. o.O


Icemage

[Feba]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Karl Rove knows a lot more about statistics and politics than you do.

OK. Someone who understands at least the basics of statistics and American politics and isn't batshit insane or a scheming scumbag.

As for FDR, he was less qualified when he was asked to run for VP, and it can be argued that he had less political experience when he was sworn in. Obviously, Assistant Secretary in the Navy does give you a lot of time to order people around, but it's not an elected (nor, as far as I can tell, civilian) position. I also forgot Nixon, who would later have a VP that was less experienced than he was as VP under Eisenhower. Wilson's VP was a lawyer who served one term as Indiana's governor.

And other people being inexperienced does not mean that inexperience is A-OK. Even if you want to argue that any of those people has less experience than Palin, that still doesn't mean that it's a good thing; especially given that those people did not take office and there's a reasonable chance that that would happen here.

People living in smaller states are going to think, "hey, why not? I may not live in Callifornya, but my state has problems and important issues too."

Nobody is debating that those jobs are IMPORTANT, just that they do not give you the experience that a president needs. Just like how being a stay-at-home parent can be EXTREMELY important, but it doesn't give you the experience to run a company.

And I don't know why you point back to that video, considering you quoted her question in the same post.

Because hearing it out of her mouth is much more powerful than just reading it. As for ignorance, how exactly are facts liberal? Polar bears are threatened by the melting of Polar Ice caps. How is that a liberal idea? We can watch the ice. We can see that it is disappearing rapidly, and could even disappear altogether. We can see that that puts polar bears in danger. Lifeforms change over time through genetic mutations. How is that a liberal idea? We can watch these changes. We have had a vague idea of this for centuries, as with dog breeding, and we have had rather specific information on it lately. We can see changes in the fossil record. The Vice President has responsibilities. How in the WORLD is that a liberal idea?

On what the VP does, I have no problem admitting I don't fully know. I know that they have some power over the Senate, but that's about it constitutionally (as far as I am aware, I mean). However, I am not the one running for Vice President! I do, however, know that the Vice President is the second in line to the presidency, and I do know that Palin has no business being in that spot. She would not have lasted a second in a presidential primary, she would have instantly been blasted by the party that is begrudgingly rallying behind her for her lack of experience and ability.

but I'm reading it was a slam dunk, at least for the conservatives out there.

The conservatives were already on McCain's side, and already behind the pick. I had to skip the last few minutes of it, because it simply dragged on too long, but I have a very hard time imagining that it didn't turn off many independents. Most everyone I've seen discussing it (admittedly not many) has said that she was very aggressive, and almost seemed mean spirited to the point of that being what people will remember.

Of course, the right wing loonies would talk about how great it was if all she did was walk on stage, say "Obama sucks", and walked off; just as some people would've praised any speech given at the DNC (although from what I heard, only the opening was really bad)

Almost every other thing out of Guiliani and Palin's mouths tonight seemed like either hypocrisy, lying, twisting the facts, or just plain stupidity. At points it almost sounded like they were parroting the democratic and Obama points and goals, while simultaneously bashing them. I have a hard time believing that informed voters would buy it, but then I'd have a hard time believing that informed voters are a significant factor too.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing about her speech-- she brought up almost exactly if not exactly the SAME "I turned down the bridge to nowhere" lines. ANYONE who has been paying attention the past few days is going to be VERY turned off that not only did she lie about that, but that she's STILL DOING IT, AND expecting people to eat it up.

[Bricklayer]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

I didn't think there was anyone who thought the US presence in Iraq was a mission from God.

I was wrong. o.O

Actually, I remember hearing a number of people saying things like that back before we got into Iraq. Guess she doesn't provide much balance to McCain on Iraq, huh? Of course, Biden wrote this gem with Richard Lugar back in 2002. Though it ultimately was not adopted, Biden still decided to vote for H.J. 114 authorizing the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq. Maybe since then he's had a change of heart...

I guess it would be nice to have a president with real anti-foreign-intervention credentials for once. I almost thought Palin could bring some of that, but it sounds like she's just another cookie out of the cutter. It doesn't seem that Obama/Biden would be much different.
______________________________

On what the VP does, I have no problem admitting I don't fully know. I know that they have some power over the Senate, but that's about it constitutionally (as far as I am aware, I mean). However, I am not the one running for Vice President! I do, however, know that the Vice President is the second in line to the presidency, and I do know that Palin has no business being in that spot. She would not have lasted a second in a presidential primary, she would have instantly been blasted by the party that is begrudgingly rallying behind her for her lack of experience and ability.

Well, if you're going to judge her on what responsibilities a president has (since you can't judge her on VP duties, and you think McCain has a realistic chance of dying before his term ends), what would you say those responsibilities are?

Further, I don't see where being a Senator is exactly "Executive" experience.

Of course, considering the kind of politicians being churned out in Washington these days, maybe these three products of the system (with a lot of Washington experience) aren't exactly the type of people we should be hoping will occupy the POTUS.

Many people would say that a governor's duties (or even a mayor's duties) are much closer to those of the presidency than a congressman's. They made that argument for the Ghoul didn't they? But then, by logic stated earlier in the thread, Palin's executive experience is not at the same level. Reference was made to the low population of Alaska. I'm curious, what's the population of Arkansas?

To me, it seems that a lot of concern over experience is somewhat unfounded. I'd take a lot of things other than experience when deciding who is going to head the Executive Branch, e.g. understanding/philosophy of the Constitution, philosophy on foreign relations/war, economics, civil liberties, Natural Law, etc., etc. Other people may think the president should be well-traveled, have executive experience (Romney anyone?), be a good communicator, support specific social issues (for/against abortion, homosexual marriage, environmental regulation)., be a Rhodes scholar...

Ultimately, nobody but an incumbent has ANY presidential experience, so it's hard to say who will make a good POTUS. I'd like to vote for someone who respects individual liberty and property, doesn't go to war unless we were attacked, and doesn't sign budgets that require the printing or borrowing of large sums of money.

[Feba]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Well, if you're going to judge her on what responsibilities a president has (since you can't judge her on VP duties, and you think McCain has a realistic chance of dying before his term ends), what would you say those responsibilities are?

I do, however, know that the Vice President is the second in line to the presidency,

Pay attention please.

Further, I don't see where being a Senator is exactly "Executive" experience.

Newsflash: McCain has no more executive experience than Obama. Neither of them have been a governor, or even a mayor. Hell, if you really want to stretch things, Obama's time as a community organizer or in the private sector might count as some form of executive power. But the idea that you have to be a mayor or governor to be president is silly, largely because McCain himself is not. It's a hilariously idiotic and hypocritical argument, even for the GOP.

Many people would say that a governor's duties (or even a mayor's duties) are much closer to those of the presidency than a congressman's.

Duties? Quite possibly. Knowledge? Experience? Not in your first term! Not compared to people who talk to foreign leaders, and work on international politics, and HAVE TO understand many complex issues in order to survive.

As for Arkansas, it has nearly five times the population of Alaska; although I'm sure you're referring to Bill Clinton, and I'm not going to bother looking up the population while he was in office. He was, however, in office for over ten years, and from what I can see won five elections; not to mention the presidential election itself. Again, having to PROVE yourself to the people, instead of riding on someone else's coat tails, is very important.

As for the whole experience thing, are there other qualities that are important? Most certainly. Even more important? Possibly. Is there any reason to pick someone so blatantly unqualified, when there are many better options out there? Absolutely not. Is there any reason why someone who is having trouble managing one of the smallest states in the union should be a heartbeat away from running the country? Absolutely not.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

The US media more or less draws closer to resembling the British media with each passing day - Meaning their only real loyalty is to sensationalism and money.

I noticed Obama said personal family issues was a territory that people and the media shouldn't be focusing on. I agree with him.

Yet what were the media and people still going crazy about after he said that? Pregnant daughter, CNN and other media outlets were happy to emblazon that bit of info, even though they didn't know who the fuck Palin was til a few days ago.

Am I seriously supposed to believe someone with the responsibilties of a governor is going to be able to keep an eye on thier kid. Oh yeah, I'm sure Palin comes home in time to cook the hubby dinner and watch over the kids.

CNN has been a veritable chameleon when it comes to thier political stance. When Fox News got higher ratings, they conformed to thier viewpoint in hopes of getting better ratings. People want to make a big fuss about politicians losing thier cool? Clinton lost his cool on Fox news once and as I recall he was fully within his rights to do so, they called him in on false pretenses to nail him on old issues rather than talk about the news-worthy reason he was there.

The US media in general has turned into a gossipy pile of horseshit, but televised and internet media is especially guilty. The agenda is supposed to be bringing people the facts, not sensationalism.

Even though I didn't like Hillary, the media a good number on her too. Its practically the same smear campaign they're pulling on Palin now, which leads me to suspect they think doing so is great for ratings and that a black presidential candidate with great speeches is better than a woman with comprable or better experience politically.

[Feba]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Its practically the same smear campaign they're pulling on Palin now, which leads me to suspect they think doing so is great for ratings and that a black presidential candidate with great speeches is better than a woman with comprable or better experience politically.

So even though you admit that Palin's experience may not be better than comparable to Obama's, you still feel the need to imply that all he has is great speeches? Pick a message, bud.

[Bricklayer]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Pay attention please.

Please reread my comments. I must not have made myself crystal clear (though I actually didn't leave much room for error). To rephrase what I was saying, what do you think the responsibilities of the president are? The reason I ask is, you seem to think that is how we should be judging Palin's suitability for her election to VP, as it is possible (however unlikely) she will be forced into the presidency by a McCain death. If you don't like the word responsibilities, maybe presidential abilities, or qualifications, could be commented on instead. Again, I'm not a McCain fan (definitely not voting for him).

Newsflash: McCain has no more executive experience than Obama. Neither of them have been a governor, or even a mayor. Hell, if you really want to stretch things, Obama's time as a community organizer or in the private sector might count as some form of executive power. But the idea that you have to be a mayor or governor to be president is silly, largely because McCain himself is not. It's a hilariously idiotic and hypocritical argument, even for the GOP.

Never said McCain has more executive experience than Obama. And, I think I made it clear that I don't value executive experience for this office above an understanding of the Constitution (and willingness to operated within its limits on presidential powers), non-interventionist foreign policy, deregulation of the economy, etc., etc. If Obama or McCain had those qualifications, I could care less how much executive experience they had.

As for the whole experience thing, are there other qualities that are important? Most certainly. Even more important? Possibly. Is there any reason to pick someone so blatantly unqualified, when there are many better options out there? Absolutely not. Is there any reason why someone who is having trouble managing one of the smallest states in the union should be a heartbeat away from running the country? Absolutely not.

Honestly, for me it doesn't matter who McCain picked. And, I'm sure people's preferences for his VP pick are all over the map. I wouldn't have picked her. I also wouldn't say she's "blatantly unqualified." And, I definitely wouldn't say she's a heartbeat away from running the country. First, I doubt McCain would die in office. Second, she really wouldn't be running the country (especially if We the People don't let her). She could move troops around, spy on people, capture terrorists, etc. Honestly, I bet she'd "do less" in those areas than good ol' GW. Also, if she wanted to get re-elected (something McCain probably doesn't care so much about), she'd have to at least try to get people behind her. I don't think the American people will be fooled into electing an overreaching POTUS again (well, they may vote for statist Obama/Biden).

EDIT: Oh yea, and can someone tell me why we're giving $1B in aid to Georgia after they tried (and failed) to take over South Ossetia and Abkhazia? And, why is a country nowhere near the North Atlantic being pushed for entry into NATO? Gotta love Cheney, calling NATO "a defensive alliance".

EDIT 2: IIRC, the VP slot originally went to whoever finished 2nd in the presidential election. Don't I wish we could go back to THOSE days!

[Feba]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

what do you think the responsibilities of the president are?

I've already answered this as well. Again, pay attention.

If Obama or McCain had those qualifications,

You might be interested in FactCheck.org: Was Barack Obama really a constitutional law professor? .

I also wouldn't say she's "blatantly unqualified." And, I definitely wouldn't say she's a heartbeat away from running the country. First, I doubt McCain would die in office. Second, she really wouldn't be running the country (especially if We the People don't let her). She could move troops around, spy on people, capture terrorists, etc.

1- McCain is 72 years old. He has had cancer.
2- There have been 43 presidents. 9 vice presidents have succeeded to the presidency due to death, assasxxxxtion, or resignation.
3- A president does far more than play house with their powers.
4- Even if all she did do was screw around in office, that could still very easily have serious and lasting damage on the country, world (as in governments), and planet.

[Bricklayer]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

4- Even if all she did do was screw around in office, that could still very easily have serious and lasting damage on the country, world (as in governments), and planet.

Hmm, this is starting to sound like a monarchy or dictatorship. I thought we had a Congress that would take care of foreign and environmental affairs (though they could get a LOT less involved in both and I'd be much happier)?

P.S. I'll go back and reread your comments in the thread (I went through a bit too quickly the first time). I honestly thought you hadn't explicitly stated what exactly you thought the important responsibilities and qualifications were for president. Sorry in advance if I missed something.


EDIT:

To answer a few questions at once here, while she could probably handle the 'signing bills into law' bit, there is a lot more that she has little if any exposure to. Even as she was being introduced yesterday, there were people in the media worrying that she was going to suffer because she simply hadn't been in the national spotlight before. If she had to take presidential office, how would she handle talks with foreign leaders? How many of those countries does she even know about? And how could she speak honestly, when she doesn't understand what goes on in her own country?

Not compared to people who talk to foreign leaders, and work on international politics, and HAVE TO understand many complex issues in order to survive.

That's what I found. I'll try to respond later (just getting off work).

[Feba]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Hmm, this is starting to sound like a monarchy or dictatorship.

Not really. Having power and having limitless or nearly limitless power are very separate things. Having power and having unchecked power are different; although honestly I doubt congress will ever hold any sufficiently high up government official responsible for anything ever again.

Congress can only be as good as the person with veto power. It's very hard to pass a bill after a presidential veto.

The Commander in Chief's power over the military is probably less likely to be abused, but using the CIA and FBI to go after (political and other) enemies would be right up Palin's alley.

The President's ability to embarrass and shame the US on an international level has already been well proven over the past eight years, we don't need to reaffirm that.

The POTUS can damage the US on all sorts of levels through economic, military and foreign policy, and constitutional abuse and mismanagement.

[Bricklayer]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Not really. Having power and having limitless or nearly limitless power are very separate things. Having power and having unchecked power are different; although honestly I doubt congress will ever hold any sufficiently high up government official responsible for anything ever again.

Sure, unfortunately in the reality we live in now, I have to agree with you.

Congress can only be as good as the person with veto power. It's very hard to pass a bill after a presidential veto.

Sure, but honestly, I think it would be nice if the president vetoed more legislation than less. Further, it would be nice to have a president who let bad legislation expire (the Patriot Act for example), and didn't liberally interpret and apply executive orders. So, from this standpoint, we probably differ. I'd like the president to do less.

The Commander in Chief's power over the military is probably less likely to be abused, but using the CIA and FBI to go after (political and other) enemies would be right up Palin's alley.

If she has that reputation in Alaska, I'd agree. And, in addition to the whole Iraq being a mission from God thing, this would be another instant disqualifier for me.

The President's ability to embarrass and shame the US on an international level has already been well proven over the past eight years, we don't need to reaffirm that.

This point is weaker, though I don't deny that Bush has rubbed our face in the mud. Most rational people should be able to separate citizens from their elected officials. For example, in Taiwan (where I currently reside), Bush's policies are semi-well-known and looked down upon. But, nobody here has ever equated me with Bush.

The POTUS can damage the US on all sorts of levels through economic, military and foreign policy, and constitutional abuse and mismanagement.

Yep, this is my biggest complaint not only with GW, but with most presidents of the last century. Go read The Constitution in Exile for a ton of examples of abuse by all three branches.

Another thing you didn't mention is the president's appointment of federal justices.

Finally, though Obama may have taught Constitutional Law (professor or not, I could care less), I care more that he interprets the Constitution correctly, and that he follows it faithfully. Unfortunately, I don't believe any of these four (McCain, Palin, Obama, and Biden) will do that. And one way to get an idea of whether or not they will follow the Constitution and interpret it correctly is to look at their legislation attempts and floor votes.

[Malacite]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Here's something else to think about;

Mc Cain and Palin want to overturn Row vs Wade (sp?) and criminalize all manner of abortion.


The twist? Around 60% of the country is pro-choice. Good luck with that one. (NOT!)



Oh yeah and that idiot Tom Delay was arguing how her being the Govenor of Alaska somehow gives her foreign policy experience for having spent time with the National Guard, and having command over them if something were to happen up in Alaska... except that those kinds of orders would come from the President and/or upper echelon of the Military. She'd definitely be involved in some way but she wouldn't be called the shots.

[Raydeus]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

I didn't think there was anyone who thought the US presence in Iraq was a mission from God.

It is when big oil owns your soul.

[Malacite]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

Sarah Palin's daughter's 'redneck' boyfriend adds to McCain campaign woes - Telegraph

'Redneck' boyfriend of Sarah Palin's daughter to join Republican convention

Palin's daughter's boyfriend called himself a 'redneck'

Doesn't want kids eh? Well ain't that just too god damned bad.





Also:Condoms and teen pregnancy stumps US Republican presidential candidate John McCain

{Aids} {You can have this.}

[MrMageo]

Re: Palin announced as Republican VP nominee.

It is when big oil owns your soul.

the best part Iraq made a deal with china and not the USA.