Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

[Feba]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Heat, it's obviously not electricty.

I said energy. Not electricity.

For those of you who didn't pay attention in Science, the sun is the root source of almost all of the energy on the planet.

The same type of energy that underdeveloped civilizations can utilize.

Again, not everywhere. The energy requirements for converting salt water into potable water aren't insignificant. To convert via solar power still takes a lot of space and time, which isn't always an option. Even if it were, that's much less effective than, say, a creature which CAN drink salt water (and desalinate it naturally, presumably)

[Ziero]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Again, not everywhere. The energy requirements for converting salt water into potable water aren't insignificant. To convert via solar power still takes a lot of space and time, which isn't always an option. Even if it were, that's much less effective than, say, a creature which CAN drink salt water (and desalinate it naturally, presumably)

...no, it doesn't. It takes time yes, but it's a basic and simple process that humans have been using for thousands of years.

And if drinking salt water is a simple and better solution, how come no complex species on the planet, not even the ones who live in the ocean, can drink it? Fish don't drink water, they filter it to breath in the oxygen. Because like us, it's the oxygen that keeps them alive. But land creatures have developed a different, far more efficient method of intaking oxygen.

The point is, whether it's through intelligent design, natural evolution or even a combination of both, we can't go and say "Well this would be better" because if it was there would be examples out there. For as "poorly" designed as we humans are, we're incredibly versitile as we have the abilities to transcend our natural limits (as you pointed out, the human body wasn't designed for flight, yet it's done so by massive quantities of people every day) through the use of our ingenuity and superior learning capabilities. For as flawed as we are, there are no examples of anything that is designed "better". And it doesn't matter how we came to be, either through fluke accident or intentional creation.

[Feba]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

And if drinking salt water is a simple and better solution, how come no complex species on the planet, not even the ones who live in the ocean, can drink it?

Because evolution is not intelligent enough to have us do that, and there is no designer.

For as "poorly" designed as we humans are, we're incredibly versitile

Yes. And we're still poorly designed. Windows can run many different programs. It has the single largest software library on the planet. It's still poorly designed. And biological systems are far less controversial than computers-- there's no microkernel vs. monolithic kernel debate. There are some things which simply could be designed better. Whether they are or not is not the point. What you're saying is like a man in the 1800s saying that nothing will ever be more powerful than a steam engine, because he's never seen anything more powerful than a steam engine. The steam engine may be revolutionary, it might enable whole new levels of automation, but that does not make it the ultimate power source.

To use an analogy with cars, what you're saying is like saying a few decades ago that "there's nothing better than what we have, because it hasn't been built yet.". For awhile, this applied to seat belts, and then airbags, and ABS. With your logic, the fact that we didn't have those already was because we should never have them. For that matter,

we can't go and say "Well this would be better" because if it was there would be examples out there.

could apply to every single bit of progress humanity has ever made.

Once again: evolution is a mountain range with a series of peaks. It is not a ladder. Right now, humanity is standing on top of one peak, where all of the peaks we can see are below us. We would be irrational and arrogant to assume that we're standing on the tallest peak, or the prettiest mountain. We'd be just plain stupid to ignore the scrapes we got from climbing-- and the things that climbing never taught us.

sidenote: I say humans are on top of a peak because I highly doubt that any creature that evolves to this point and then works up to a cultural and technological level of this scale is going to be evolving in a biological sense for more than a few hundred years longer, be it do to integration with technology or MAD.

[MrMageo]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Acctually the the reason salt water desalination (the act of removing salt from the water) is not commonly used is not because of a huge energy. You can survive in the sahara desert with a sheet of plastic a shovel, and a cup the energy is their to provide for us. What the issue is, is the astronomical cost of harnessing that energy.

Their are two ways we can currently "harvest" that energy to run these desalination plants.

1. Create more power using our current means of energy , coal, hydro electric, nuclear. This would increase the cost to everyone in the "grid" as prices to power an extra 10KW is huge (10,000 watts). The reason Electricity is so cheap as is, is because of the amount of electricity we can produce. In and around the great lakes there are sevveral nuclear plant, Niagra falls, Hydro Electric Quebec, and plenty of coal still. The excess energy is routed south and west to power help power the Midwest, California, Nevada, Gulf Coast. Adding extra power for basically an equal consumer to a small city would require us to make more plants costing money so we can keep our current energy levels contained (hi 2 u Blackout of greatlakes regions that icluded 2 provinces and 6 states).

Now Developed countries with Hydro-electric, Nuclear power are a step ahead but un-developed countries require coal and oil plants to power them, heck some countries don't even have full power grids. The cost to bring a plant to say the african nations is going to be huge, and the bill would be footed by us in developed countries.

2. Development of Geothermal power. These plants are rare and several are scattered around the globe, But the cost of these is over 10 times the cost of a nuclear power plant. Which is why they have not taken off. They are nearly 100% clean burning as well. But again it all leads back to the cost of power.

We already have the means to power these through solar/hydro-electric means in north america (and there are several along the coast lines of the USA and Canada powered through this means some are even self powered in the east coast of canada and are part of hydro Quebec.)

Of course the real limitation of being a dependant of water is the lack there of. Soon countries will scream for water, and as a canadain that makes me uneasy. With a little under 70% of the worlds fresh water in our borders we are a prime target. Our government has already turned down the japanese who wanted to buy great lakes water from us, by bringing specially desinged tankers to "harvest" it. We also recently denied an american attempt to run a pipeline from james bay through lake superior to nevada.

James bay is funny since it is a fresh water area. It is connected to Hudson's bay which is Salt Water. The reason for this is the flow of the fresh water rivers into it. Which there in lies another of our human errors. In our ever loving quest for electricity we have dammed of some of the greatest fresh water river in the world. The mighty Colorado which flows from the mountains into the pacific is dammed off by one of the largest producers of power in the western hemisphere the Hoover Dam. Before that Dam was completed people were able to drink out of the delta that flowed into the gulf of california, now the fresh ot salt water ratio is so poor they are no longer able to do that.

Another Issue we have caused for ourselves is the pollution of our fresh water delivery system. If the lakes are our lifeline to water then the rivers are the veins. Look at the Hudson River, The Mississippi, The Rio Grande these are some of the most polluted water ways in the world. They all carry fresh water that we can not use unless cleaned. Which requires energy, and energy requires money to harness, which leads us back to number the top.

I wish more people would understand the circle of life, we need the earth, it is our caregiver, our mother so to speak, If the earth is our mother then the sun is our father. Without either we will die. However, the earth can survive without us, the earth can survive without the sun, life may perish but the planet will always move on. Really we can't assume anything, we have been a blip on this planets surface and we will still be a blip after we are gone, but the planet will carry on. Barring any nuclear incident scientist estimate it will take the earth 2000 years to reclaim everything we have done to her and upon her. So if we were wiped out tomorrow 2000 years from then all traces of our existance will be gone. 18000 years would be our total print on the earth, and it wouldn't even blink. It would just keep going.

Thats why I don't buy the eggheads thoughts of global warming, I mean who is to say this has not happened before, we do not know shit, we don't know if its us doing it or if its just a cycle. I mean ok the Ice Caps melt the water rises, the planet cools from the abundance of water, Rain Cycles increase due to the amount of water, cooling the planet further. Polar regions begin to freeze again and voila, back to square one. (reminds me of a story I once read about the flooding of the world). Our existance means nothing. Like I said tomorrow we could all be wiped out, and in 2000 years our society will be buried. Take life by the horns, live every day like its your last, because in the end your as insignifigant as a solitary ant.

[Caspian]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

I can't speak for the other rivers, and you probably know this, but its not all of the Rio Grande that is so disgusting. Mainly just the southern portion where it nears the Mexico border, mainly the Texas/Mexico border. That water is definately disgusting. But I've fished it quite a bit farther upstream, more central New Mexico in the Rockies is much nicer and cleaner.