Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

[Cometgreen]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

I think it could be taken as a dig at the notion of biblical creation. God made a world for us that's 2/3 water... but He didn't give us gills?

If that's the intention, then it is not about intelligent design or evolution. Just something all of us can think about and chuckle.

[Tipsy]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

I agree with Caspian that "made for" hints at intelligent design.

However, it can be for evolution as well, if in your perspective, you see it as we we're just a luck in genetics. The Earth wasn't made for us, we just happen to live on it.

The Earth is what it is and always has been. So if we we're made on this Earth, through Evolution, that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to have gils because, if we did, we would ask ourselves why is there land?

I'm also sure there are billions of different species in the Sea that have yet to be discovered, so "land walkers" or whatever, humans, are just a small percentage of the life on Earth that wasn't lucky enough to be born with gills.

Except for Michael Phelps.

Which agian hints at evolution because in natural selection, traits come and go.


Which brings up the question: If humans never existed, and we turn the clock forward a trillion years from now, would Dolphins be swimming around (if not running) with iPods in their hummer(subs)?

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

That doesn't make sense, though. It's very likely there is life outside of the oceans BECAUSE it was advantageous to exist on land, despite the fact that there was less of it....Evolution is like a mountain range with a series of peaks; not a ladder like people think.

Yes, in fact the Cambrian explosion brought competition to the seas in ways which have never been duplicated since. The Profusion of life in the Sea - and the appearance of the first apex predators would pretty logically make the land a LOT more attractive, even if it was hard to live there, it was safer than the seas.

at first

And yes, Evolution is anything but smooth.

[Karinya]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Really? What about the wording makes you think its about evolution?
To me the "for" implies purpose, rather than happenstance.
How does it read to you?

Because it proves that the designer, if there was one, was either a moron who didn't think to put water breathing on half his species when designing them for a mostly water-covered planet, or a cruel bastard who *deliberately* left water breathing off half his species. Some can't swim worth a damn even when they stay near the surface for air - but most of the ocean isn't near the surface, so if you can't hold your breath for an hour or build submarines, you're still locked out of most of the Earth.

So it's "about" intelligent design, but not in a pro-intelligent-design way.


P.S. Cetaceans actually *did* go back into the water after their ancestors lived on land for a while. So did otters. So did seals and walruses. So did sea turtles (which lay their eggs on land because they're descended from ancestors that developed watertight eggs, not because it actually makes any kind of sense for a sea creature to lay its eggs on land). So did penguins.

[Feba]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

So it's "about" intelligent design,

Well, there are easy ways around your specific points ("there are advantages to having limited environements" etc.) but in general, yes, the idea of 'intelligent' design is silly merely because we are so poorly designed that any being with the intelligence to create life would surely had enough intelligence to make good lifeforms as well. I saw a rather good presentation on the subject awhile ago on C-SPAN, presented by a Gary Marcus ( Kluge, The Book, by Gary Marcus , although I have not read the book myself), talking about the subject and how it impacts our lives. Might be worth looking for.
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I've only watched a few minutes so far, but it seems to be much of the same.

[Ziero]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Which brings up the question: If humans never existed, and we turn the clock forward a trillion years from now, would Dolphins be swimming around (if not running) with iPods in their hummer(subs)?

Water is a destructive substance, especially the deeper into the ocean you go. There is no way an aquatic based life-form would be able to develop the types of technology that land based creatures use.

Because it proves that the designer, if there was one, was either a moron who didn't think to put water breathing on half his species when designing them for a mostly water-covered planet, or a cruel bastard who *deliberately* left water breathing off half his species. Some can't swim worth a damn even when they stay near the surface for air - but most of the ocean isn't near the surface, so if you can't hold your breath for an hour or build submarines, you're still locked out of most of the Earth.

Despite not being able to breath under water, humans still need water to survive. And with a world that is mainly water, it allows us to have an endless supply of the stuff on the majority of the world. If this planet was the opposite, and land was the majority of the planet, water would be a scarce commodity and life wouldn't thrive like it does now.

Well, there are easy ways around your specific points ("there are advantages to having limited environements" etc.) but in general, yes, the idea of 'intelligent' design is silly merely because we are so poorly designed that any being with the intelligence to create life would surely had enough intelligence to make good lifeforms as well. I saw a rather good presentation on the subject awhile ago on C-SPAN, presented by a Gary Marcus ( Kluge, The Book, by Gary Marcus , although I have not read the book myself), talking about the subject and how it impacts our lives. Might be worth looking for.

"Poorly" designed by who's standards? Infact how does one judge the successfulness of a life form? We, as human beings, have done things no other species in the history of this planet has even come close to accomplishing. No other creatures can create and utilize complex tools like us, or harness the power of fire. Let alone create machines that can reach other celestial bodies or alter the very fabrics of life itself. When you think for a moment about the simple things we as humans can do, then realize our closest competitors in technological development on this planet, it's not even a contest.

Despite the "stupidity" of the "creator" (if there is one) somehow, someway, somewhere, some thing went right. We may not be the strongest creatures, or the oldest creatures, or the most durable creatues, but we're by far the most intelligent. And that single advantage allows us to dominate this planet like no other being who has ever existed on this world.

Edit: Also, the video didn't embed right

[Feba]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

water would be a scarce commodity

Hi, the undeveloped world would like a word with you. Those big ocean things? Yeah, those are salt water. Can't drink that!

"Poorly" designed by who's standards?

Anyone's. There are things about humans, as a life form, that are just plain bad for us. Being BETTER does not mean you are well designed. Again, as the video will point out, it works, but it's not optimal or even good design. There's little debate that humans are, intellectually speaking, superior to all other known life. However, even in thought humans have many flaws which impair us, such as irrationality and sketchy poor memory. Again, the video does a very good job of explaining it. and btw, video embedding gets screwed up when posts are merged. it's a known problem, bitch to PiNG about it (and tell him to bitch to AKsyogin about it, probably). in the meantime, just click the link.

[Ziero]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Hi, the undeveloped world would like a word with you. Those big ocean things? Yeah, those are salt water. Can't drink that!

Hi2urain. Guess where that comes from.

And you can remove the salt from the water as well. While we can't directly drink ocean water, it still brings water to the rest of the world.

And at one point the entire world was "underdeveloped". But people still gathered and settled and lived near large bodies of water to become developed. Mainly rivers, which are more often then not directly connected to an ocean.

Anyone's. There are things about humans, as a life form, that are just plain bad for us. Being BETTER does not mean you are well designed. Again, as the video will point out, it works, but it's not optimal or even good design. There's little debate that humans are, intellectually speaking, superior to all other known life. However, even in thought humans have many flaws which impair us, such as irrationality and sketchy poor memory. Again, the video does a very good job of explaining it. and btw, video embedding gets screwed up when posts are merged. it's a known problem, bitch to PiNG about it (and tell him to bitch to AKsyogin about it, probably). in the meantime, just click the link.

And who's to say those flaws aren't the things that helped us develop into what we are now? Who's to say that without the "poor design" we seemingly poses that we wouldn't be where we are now. That "irrational" thinking could easily have led to incredible and otherwise unthinkable discoveries (how rational is it to think it possible to fly?).

And I wasn't aware of the video embedding problem, was just mentioning it incase it was some sort of mistake. Regardless the vid don't seem to work for me.

[Feba]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Hi2urain.

Rain reclaiming doesn't work everywhere.

And you can remove the salt from the water as well.

Which also doesn't work well everywhere. Takes a good deal of energy to do it.

If the world was 'designed for man' it would make much more sense to have a huge series of lakes and rivers instead of huge bodies of water we cannot do much of anything with without thousands of years of cultural progress.

(how rational is it to think it possible to fly?).

First of all, counter the other biological disadvantages. The weakness of various human structures, such as the eyes or spine. Secondly, those who succeeded were very rational. Everyone should know that the Wright brothers copied bird wings and how birds fly in order to get their aircraft to work. I haven't bothered to look up the subject, but I'd have a very hard time believing that someone randomly threw together the various elements it would take to make LTA aircraft.

Rationality doesn't require a lack of creativity or imagination. Irrationality doesn't make you more creative or imaginative. It simply hampers your decision making ability.

[eticket109]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Really? What about the wording makes you think its about evolution?
To me the "for" implies purpose, rather than happenstance.
How does it read to you?

Toss the word 'supposedly' in front of it. That's the type of tone I read it with. As in, supposedly something created this world for us, but we aren't really able to fully make use of it. Like I said though, I could see it either way.

The funny thing is, I agree with the manifest destiny comment. It could have very well been about that in it's original context.

edit: cometgreen and karinya summed it up pretty well as well.

[Illyria]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Well the whole reason humans are even here today is because we stole all the food from the Neanderthals and they died out. We never evolved from them by the way, we both evolved from a common ancestor and existed at the same time. They were physically superior in strength, speed, and endurance. They could fall off a two story building and just brush it off. However even though they had all those advantages, we had the numbers and nimbleness in order to gather enough food that we eventually doomed the Neanderthals to die of starvation.

So we're not here today because we were always physically or mentally superior to any other race before us because we weren't, but just because of a series of events that happened 30,000 years in the past. We got greedy which meant we got lucky.

Anyway, in regards to the T-shirt, I agree with Cometgreen. I took it as like a "Explain that, Christianity!" sort of comment.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Which also doesn't work well everywhere. Takes a good deal of energy to do it.

Actually no it doesn't, it only takes the sun and some simple items. Back in my youth I did a some crazy stuff and went on some hardcore "camping" vacations. All you need is the sun and using good old evaporation, you can get drinking water. This also works with urine.......don't ask.

[Feba]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Actually no it doesn't, it only takes the sun

And just what do you think the sun is providing?

[Omniblast]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

And just what do you think the sun is providing?

Heat, it's obviously not electricty.

Although light is a form of electricty.

[Ziero]

Re: Would you say this T-Shirt represent Evolution or Intelligent Design?

And just what do you think the sun is providing?

The same type of energy that underdeveloped civilizations can utilize.