Georgia/Russia.. Welcome back to the '80's, Feba!

[Neomage]

Re: Georgia/Russia.. Welcome back to the '80's, Feba!

So let me get this straight caspian.

You think that Bush is not at fault?, When it was his government was the driving force behind disallowing the 2 breakaway provinces to claim autonomy or rejoin russia, like they did for kosovo? Putin warned that it was a mistake.

Its also not the wests fault for putting in a power hungry pro west leader? Who fired the first shot? Who marched on a breakaway territory with his army? Russia just did much of the same as the USA had done in Nam trying to prevent a hostile takeover of a potential ally.

Georgia got exactly what it deserved, and who is to say it is wrong condi? The west is screaming bloody murder yet it is perfectly fine for us to march into Iraq, who did not fire a shot at us, who did not have these promised weapons of mass destruction, and who has not been found to support terror of any kind.

Not to mention Russia needs to play a safe move, if dumbass mccain gets in to the white house and Iran becomes the next target who is going to keep the USA at bay in the middle east? Russia, and I would much rather have the red army back fighting then unleash that mammoth behind their great wall.

Face it Bush and his government brought this on the USA is walking around the world unchecked and has been since 1990 with the collapse of the soviet union. Its about time someone flexed their muscle because this fight for freedom is bullshit. Bush should be hung, along with his entire staff kudos to mr putin and the reds its about time they did something instead of idle banter.

Not to mention how would you feel if all of a sudden 6 surrounding countries joined a 36 member alliance. Russia had to do something otherwise the west would be on their door step. Now as it stands we are caught with our dicks in our hands, and there is nothing we can do.

Oh and one more thing USA condemns Russia to that I say

Pot kettle, kettle pot.

While I don't agree with most of the stuff you said, I certainly agree with some of it. I actually support Russia on this move. Georgia attacked Russian personnel, then expected the U.S. to back them up. Russia did the only thing they could to protect themselves, and people are mad at them? Perhaps they shouldn't have attacked civilian targets, but the attack on Georgian military bases was entirely warranted. Our invasion of Iraq was much worse then this petty conflict.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Georgia/Russia.. Welcome back to the '80's, Feba!

[Kitalrez]

Re: Georgia/Russia.. Welcome back to the '80's, Feba!

While I don't agree with most of the stuff you said, I certainly agree with some of it. I actually support Russia on this move. Georgia attacked Russian personnel, then expected the U.S. to back them up. Russia did the only thing they could to protect themselves, and people are mad at them? Perhaps they shouldn't have attacked civilian targets, but the attack on Georgian military bases was entirely warranted. Our invasion of Iraq was much worse then this petty conflict.

I think it has more to do with where they were attacked rather than who did the attacking. Georgia attacked Russian personnel... in Georgia. They weren't asked to enter Georgia, they were there to stabilize the breakaway provinces. Which is pretty close to what the Georgian military was doing there. If Idaho decides to stage an insurrection, what's the US going to do? You're going to have every national guard unit in the country move into Idaho to stabilize the region and restore the rule of law. That's not iron-handed imperialism, that's called government. If you're a Georgian, Russia just invaded you. This isn't a justified peace-keeping operation, this is all hell breaking loose.

Also, you're going with the wrong analogy here. Drop this Iraq crap. Yes, it's bad and no one likes what we did except really crazy people. But we went across the world to do that. It would be hard for us to justify annexing Iraq, probably impossible. We aren't even setting up a decent puppet government so we can exploit the place to pieces if you believe the GAO's assessment of Iraq's oil revenue v. how much we're spending on reconstruction.

If you really want to understand what's happening here, you gotta go way back further than Iraq, further than even 'Nam. These aren't annexation efforts. You want Spanish American War era. You want the colonization/annexation of Texas. You want "Black Jack" Pershing chasing Pancho Villa around Northern Mexico. There's a reason Mexican troops don't want anything to do with joint military exercises with us. It's the same reason that it'll be a cold day in hell before they ask us to help with the narcotics cartels shooting up the border regions. We don't play well with Mexico. Same deal in Georgia. This is going next door and taking over. There's a big difference between this and going across the world and shooting people up. Both are completely unjustified, but going across the globe doesn't allow you to redraw any maps. This does. That's the reason this should be of concern. There's no way the UN would ever let us annex Iraq, nor would the Iraqi people ever allow that. We have no language in common, no common cultural norms, etc. We'd run out of trading partners in a hurry if we even considered it. Georgia has enough in common with Russia that the UN will probably just roll over if they decide to annex, though. If that happens, where does it end? There's a lot of pockets of ethnic Russians in that region, Stalin made sure of that. It's not without the realm of possibility for Putin to start rebuilding the old empire. If/When he does that, we'll end up right back where we were before the wall came down.

[Feba]

Re: Georgia/Russia.. Welcome back to the '80's, Feba!

Georgia attacked Russian personnel... in Georgia.

That's not iron-handed imperialism, that's called government.

Secessionists disagree. And they're sort of the ones you're invading/stabilizing.

Even if it were Russia's goal to gain those regions, the inhabitants there obviously are in line with that thinking. The majority there possesses Russian passports, and has claimed independence from Georgia. This is less like Idaho breaking away, and more like the US occupying the Bahamas (imagine they're still under British rule). Is it legally right? Probably not. Morally so? Possibly. Citizens expect protection from their nation.

[Cometgreen]

Re: Georgia/Russia.. Welcome back to the '80's, Feba!

If Idaho decides to stage an insurrection, what's the US going to do? You're going to have every national guard unit in the country move into Idaho to stabilize the region and restore the rule of law. That's not iron-handed imperialism, that's called government.

Loyalist! Go join the Redcoats.

[MrMageo]

Re: Georgia/Russia.. Welcome back to the '80's, Feba!

Both of these breakaway states are mostly russian citizens or russian supporters, they were denied autonomy by the UN shortly after Kosovo was allowed autonomy in a similar ordeal.

Although these areas are georgian, they are comprised of russian citizens. Using a similar idea that was posted before.

It would be like if Alberta succeeded from the Canada, applied for autonomy and was denied. Then the USA offered them citizenship, passports, finances, and protection. Then one day Canadian troops entered to restore sovereignty to Alberta (even though they do not want it).

The key thing here is the majority of people in these regions do not want to be part of georgia, for various reasons most importantly being they do not want to be under western influence as georgia is.

When Saakashvili gave the order he gave it under the assumption that the west had his back. Based on his commitment of about 2000 troops to Iraq. This was not the case as France and Germany both nixed his countries hope to join NATO. Their reasoning, if Georgia can not maintain control of its own sovereignty NATO could be pulled into a war it can not be a part of. The attack led by georgia assaulted russian citizens under constituational protection of the russian military. When Russia broke across to defend its citizens it just kept rolling. Georgia made a huge mistake and now they have to deal with.

Even the rest of the world realizes this, the UN backed ceasefire states russia does not have to move out of georgia, and georgia can not move against them. This has more similarities to the apeasement of Munich and the march on the sudetanland that germany did in the 1930's prior to WW2 than with anything past or present.

The reason I cited the pot kettle annalogy is because it is just that. The united states is all butthurt that russia flexed its muscle. John Mccain calls it the greatest atrocity since the end of the cold war. But he obviously wouldn't call the deaths of 30+ thousand innocent Iraqi's an atrocity. He wouldn't call his nations armies numerous abuses to these people an atrocity. I mean what is worse, protecting your citizens and putting a small pro west nation with imperialistic views in its place, or having children and adults chase down your humanitarian releif truck taunting them with water and pouring it out on the ground, because they couldnt cath up with you while you speed away in your jeep. Taking a stand against the west who used a satallite state to put preassure on your country, or walking into a iraqis families house and gunning down 17 people because you can always fall back on the excuse they were inssurgents even if they are not.

The USA has always been hipocritical of others when they have commited far worse acts. For example.

Japan in August 1945 was ready to surrender they had a slight attempt at a military coup in the following days. However the americans who did not understand their intentions assumed they were not going to surrender. However as documents state they knew it was comming yet they needed to test their weapon anyway so they had russia prolong the war with a distraction on japans west front. In the end the USA killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, civillians who's shadows from the ultraviolet light are still burned into the roads and ground where they stood that morning. Yet the loss of 3000 people in New York in response to years of oppresion and being held under the thumb from the Wests sattalite state isreal was much worse. Hell their are studies that have been done that disprove thos planes were the reason the towers fell. Coloumns in the ruins have perfect demolition cuts to 8 of the main supports. There is 7 missing video tapes of the attack on the pentagon.

The USA is so hypocritical its disgusting.