"Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

Some women love living under the Double Standard Umbrella.

On of my frat brother's girlfreinds like to poke and punch and generally be annoying. One time she jabbed me in my ribs with a fork, so I punched her (sternly) in the arm. She was shocked I actually did it.

She looked at him, pouting, and he contently returned to his sandwhich after saying, "You shouldn't have forked him."

I know that there are a LOT of women that do things like this because they know they can get away with it. This conversation is NOT ABOUT Domestic Abuse, it's about self-defense.

Violence has no gender, and someone seeking to inflict harm upon me needs to know that it's *cue Sonic* No Good.

I think violence is a low-brow way to belittle someone. There are much more fun solutions to totally destroy someone's spirit, and most of them don't require you getting your hands dirty.

edit: And thank you for the insight, Kita!

[little ninja]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

Why can't we harm women? Is it a cultural thing? Is there some kind of genetic component? What is it about women? This is the discussion I'd like us to be having. The rest of this stuff doesn't help me understand myself or my culture any better than when I first read the OP.

I guess it depends on the person you question really. Is there really any right answer? For me it was something my father told me along time ago. He also taught me that every situation had a means to an end, either by peaceful resolve or by per force. How I approached the ends was by my own doing.

For me it's not only about what my father taught me. But who I am as a whole. For me I have a ton of years invested in Kempo, and J.J. I also stand at 6 foot tall and weigh around 200 pounds. With a squat and deadlift that are close to breaking 500 pounds.

Thats why I never could nor never will. You can throw a bunch of what if's at me if you like. But who knows how they will play out. Could walking away resolve it, could a well place joke work, or will I have to resort to a physical guard to avoid it. War, fun, defense, sport. Each situation has some form of mind altering decision. Where a minor tweak will change the whole scenario,

As for the story. Who knows how ti played out, Some said it started verbally then escilated to pushing then punching. Did the boys verbal retort cause the situation to get worse. Should the boy have simply ignored her and walked away. Called for a teacher to handle the situation. Could a well timed kick to her advancing foots knee cap avoided the situation. Heck did the punch even kill the young boy, or was it do to something medical.

[Saren]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

On of my frat brother's girlfriends like to poke and punch and generally be annoying. One time she jabbed me in my ribs with a fork, so I punched her (sternly) in the arm. She was shocked I actually did it.

She looked at him, pouting, and he contently returned to his sandwich after saying, "You shouldn't have forked him."

/cheer I wish more men would do this to women who behave like that. If someones trying to hurt you then you're entitled to try and stop them regardless of their gender, age, race, disabilities, whatever.

As for the original discussion, it's left over cultural programming, as TheGrandMom said, from when women were in general a lot weaker and more delicate physically and in a position of subservience.

[DakAttack]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

I don't mean to play the devil's advocat here but...

advocacy of the devil

[NicasinXS]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

I once had a situation when I was in grade school (about 13 years old) where a gangster wannabe girl approached me with the intent to hit me or beat me up. I don't know what her deal was, maybe she had a sort of crush or something but after her words she made a move to hurt me. I did what I thought any, boys dont hit girls, type of person should do. I tackled her down as softly as I could and held her down till her boyfriend showed up. He approached and announced that I did the right thing which was wierd cuz I thought the real fight was going to start just then, but it didnt.

Another similiar story is a time a girl in grade school sent one of her girlfriends to appoach and hit me. This chick didnt say any flippant words or warnings. She just walked up to me and slapped me in the face. I smiled knowing it was because of a crush. She walked away bewildered. In this instance charisma was the choice defence.

So in one instance a girl wanted to make an example of me that she could beat up a guy thus calling for atleast minor physical reaction while the latter called for an emotional response.

It's all situational I guess.

A man or boy hitting girls is wrong imo, but defending yourself is always necessary no matter whats coming at you.

[Mog]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

My simple thoughts are...

It is not right for a guy to hit a girl first. Under any circumstance.

If a girl hits a guy first, then it's fair game. I can and will claim self defense if somebody strikes me first, regardless of what sex it is.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

A man or boy hitting girls is wrong imo, but defending yourself is always necessary no matter whats coming at you.

That's why so many people back home carry shanks.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

Somehow we've wandered into "safe" territory with this discussion. We started out with asking if it was Ok to hit a woman period, and we somehow ended up being against domestic violence and in favor of self defense. They're good defensible positions, but they kind of miss the mark Rain_Blade seemed to be making. If I was reading him correctly, he was asking if it was possible a cultural taboo against hitting women period just cost this kid his life. That's kind of the discussion I'd rather be having right now, rather than decrying how awful abuse is or how important it is to defend yourself. If that wasn't where Rain_Blade was going, let's have that one anyway.

What is it about being female that gives you a pass in potentially violent situations?

While you're chewing on that, let's address TheGrandMom's assertion that "violence is never the answer". I don't think we've thought that through entirely, because I can think of at least one example where it's culturally appropriate, if not expected. Let us assume next St. Patrick's Day you're down at the pub having a few. A strange man comes up to your group, clearly drunk, and starts getting verbally or physically abusive with your girlfriend, or mom, or sister... whoever you take to the bar. He turns to you and says "What are you going to do about it?" The guy in question is oh, let's go with 100 lbs., 5'0", relatively skinny looking. No matter how many times I see this, I've never once not seen the injured party turn to their friend and give him a "well, are you going to defend me or not" look. My MA is in Comm, I'm still not willing to go to talking my way out of this as a first resort. Drunk people are not the most reasonable individuals, that's probably out. You already know he's an angry drunk, so buying him another round to smooth things over probably won't help. Really, the only way out of this situation that keeps your hands clean is to get the bouncer's attention and have him deal with the guy. But this still uses either violence or the threat of violence to solve it. Even more oddly, having someone else deal with the offending party somehow makes you lose face in the situation. Unless you plan to escort the guy out in a joint lock, or somehow intimidate him through the haze of liquid courage, you can't really "win" this one.

Even though that's not a winnable situation, I've still pointed out there are ways to lose by a bit less than others. But let's play with that, what happens if the offending party isn't this scrawny, belligerent man, but instead a scrawny, belligerent woman? That changes things, doesn't it? Why? More importantly, why should it?


We mentioned hurting women in self-defense. I think this is a cop-out, really, because it's the kind of argument you can make without risking anything. You can justify just about anything in the name of self-defense. Hell, applying this on a national level is why we have sugar beet subsidies that pay more than the actual worth of the sugar we'll ever be able to extract from that near useless veggie. So let's change it. How about asking instead if it's ever OK to attack a woman unprovoked?

For all of you who just answered "no" without thinking, ask yourself this: what about military uses? I know for a fact that one of the best ways to prevent the US Marines from knocking out your clandestine nuclear facility with an infantry raid is to make sure all your guards are female. A larger portion than you'd expect are going to intentionally miss that first shot. Of those who take it, more than you expect are aiming for somewhere non-lethal. It's actually a small percentage that can pull that trigger center-mass without compunction. Everyone else is secretly hoping if they just show enough potential for force, their target will surrender and give them an out.

Marines are "shock troops", too. They're the force you use when you absolutely want everyone to know what you're doing and don't care how badly you damage the rest of the area. If they're sent in, someone intentionally wants that place destroyed as much as possible, this isn't a prisoner raid. I can say this with confidence because I was an 03, and they're not training 03's to be subtle or overly concerned for the safety of others. Right now, there's a chance I could take that shot, but when I was 19 and fresh out of School of Infantry there was no way I could pull that trigger. When Congress debated putting women into combat roles back when I became a marine, Gingrich made all those wonderful comments against it in Congress. What he and his colleagues never discussed was the unspoken thought that this might somehow be unfair for whoever was on the other end of that rifle scope. Fighting with women in your army is still somehow "fighting dirty", at least IMO.

Look again at the above situation, it is clearly offensive not defensive. It will rapidly become defensive, though, as once that warning shot goes off she suddenly knows you're there and has no compunction about shooting you. She might surrender still, or she could return fire and kill you, or your buddies, or alert people inside and start world war 3. Men will still give her that chance, though. I guess the question is, should we? More importantly, why?

Why can't we harm women? Is it a cultural thing? Is there some kind of genetic component? What is it about women? This is the discussion I'd like us to be having. The rest of this stuff doesn't help me understand myself or my culture any better than when I first read the OP.

I do apologize for the long winded post. Trust me it could have been pages and pages longer but I tried to be as brief as possible.

Addressing the OP's brief post, how can you deduce that they were not playing some sort of game and it was an accident? The OP posts no details other than a 12 yr old girl punched a 11 yr old boy in the chest twice. When I was a child, I hung out with the boys. I was the youngest of the 4 girls my father had and it pissed him off that he had no son. I got the "fun" of spending the most time with my father and doing guy stuff. So the boys would play a game where 2 of us would punch each other until one fell. I got 5 stitiches from that game once. Or there was a game where we would race or do something with a winner in the end and the bet might include X number of punches in Y spot if you lost.

The people in the OP are children. Children do not think like you and I. Yes there is a possibility that his parents told him not to hit girls but its just not drilled into kids as much as it was back in my day. And even if it was, when kids are alone with kids, they don't do what their parents say.
Don't hit a girl doesn't even cross a kids mind if they are off playing away from adult eyes.

Also this was a freak death because it's unlikely that he would have died from being punched in the chest or he had some type of condition that aggravated the situation. Either way these aren't things kids would think about. Kids do not understand the concept of death, they think they are invincible. I highly doubt the young lady did this with the intent of harming the young man to the extent that he was harmed. There are so many variables to this story that aren't addressed in the OP's very short "story" that it's silly to draw conclusions that the child intended to harm this boy.

I made a brief statement in this thread for a reason. I don't like this subject at all and, honestly, I don't like some of the attitudes in the thread. So if you want me to go there, I'll go there. First off, none of you men know what its like to be a woman. Do not put us on the same level as you. We are 2 entirely different creatures. There are always exceptions to the rules, I think I may even be one. Raised as a boy, I have unique insights on occasion. It's one of the things that guys really like about me. I have, by far, more guy friends than girl friends, so I tend to understand the guy's side of a story.

Second, unless you know what its like to be weak and to be abused, you shouldn't be talking about hitting those weaker than you. Yes, I've been on the other end of the stick. I don't bemoan my fate either, it's made me who I am and I like who I am. Would I want to endure it again? NO My biological father abused me every any way, shape, or form. For fifteen years, I lived a living hell and then what happened when I grew up? I married a man just like my father. I thank god that I was able to meet a doctor that saw the signs and, in the end, straightened both of our asses out. Yes, I'm still married to him and he has not touched me maliciously ever again.

Would a 100 lb soaking wet man or woman that is drunk be a threat to you because they said nasty things about someone you cared about? If you can't handle a situation like that without using violence to boost your self esteem, then you have a problem. If the woman your with eggs you on to use violence, then the same goes for her. This is a no-brainer whether its a man or a woman. Losing face over a drunk? Honestly, a man that thinks that has a self esteem issue. You point out the issue to the management of the bar and you let them handle it. That is the correct thing to do. You don't worry about how they take care of it, you worry about how you take care of it. And if you are worried that your g/f will look down their nose at you for not punching the person, get a new g/f. We are back to the self esteem issues. If the management doesn't do anything, then pick up and take your business elsewhere. Again, any snide comments from the g/f...see previous comment.

As I said, violence is never the answer but I'm not talking about situations such as war or being in fear for your life. There are exceptions to be sure. War is a unique situation all of its own. To use the opening "if it's ever OK to attack a woman unprovoked?" in the context of war is unfair to the general public because war is an entirely different beast. Should you shoot women and children in war? That's something you struggle with as an individual and on a case by case basis. My husband was a Vietnam era Marine. Crying woman carrying a screaming child running towards you and your men in the jungle ignoring your commands to stop....what do you do? Could you shoot? Should you shoot? If you don't shoot and she has a grenade/bomb and could kill you or your men, what then? If she doesn't have a grenade/bomb but is in fear for her childs life and looking to you for help and you shoot, what then? Yes, these are decisions of war and best left to decide for the individual at that moment. None of us can say for certain what we would do because the majority of us have never been in that situation nor will ever be, god willing.

Here I have one. Let's say you had a HORRIBLE day at work. You are pissed off and just want to go and forget about your day for a while. You go out to the range and knock balls around until late at night. Then you take a long drive, grab a bite to eat somewhere, and then drive home. You don't answer your cell or call home, you just want to be alone. You go home around midnight and find your wife hysterical. She expected you home at your usual time and when you weren't she called you on your cell but you didn't answer. She thought you might have been in an accident and has been worried sick. You look at her and say "Just leave me alone." but she continues to cry, step in your way, and demand that you talk to her. Your anger flares and you say "Get the f**k out of my way b***h!" and she slaps you across your face. What do you do next? Do you smack her back? Do you ignore her? Do you apologize? Do you walk back out of the house? Who's right? Who's wrong? What would you do? This is a situation that an average person would deal with. War is not.

I don't think the question should be "Why can't we harm women?" I think the question should be "Why shouldn't we harm each other?" This is the discussion we should be having. Why does the question have to be man vs woman? Gender has little to do with it. I've had to help men that were in an abusive relationship too. It's much more rare but it does happen and it shouldn't. We shouldn't be hurting anyone. We should be helping each other as we walk down this often hard unforgiving road of life.

[Raydeus]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

It obviously depends on the situation but If a woman resorts to violence against me I probably stopped considering her a woman some time before that, so she would recieve the appropiate retaliation just like any other guy.

Fortunately my life is very peaceful so it has never happened, but man or women it doesn't make any difference to me, if they try something funny I certainly wouldn't just let them have their way unless there was a very good reason for me to allow it.

[Murphie]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

It is not right for a guy to hit a girl first. Under any circumstance.

People keep saying things like this. Why? It's not right for a girl to hit a guy first either. Under any circumstance.
______________________________

Here I have one. Let's say you had a HORRIBLE day at work. You are pissed off and just want to go and forget about your day for a while. You go out to the range and knock balls around until late at night. Then you take a long drive, grab a bite to eat somewhere, and then drive home. You don't answer your cell or call home, you just want to be alone. You go home around midnight and find your wife hysterical. She expected you home at your usual time and when you weren't she called you on your cell but you didn't answer. She thought you might have been in an accident and has been worried sick. You look at her and say "Just leave me alone." but she continues to cry, step in your way, and demand that you talk to her. Your anger flares and you say "Get the f**k out of my way b***h!" and she slaps you across your face. What do you do next? Do you smack her back? Do you ignore her? Do you apologize? Do you walk back out of the house? Who's right? Who's wrong? What would you do? This is a situation that an average person would deal with. War is not.

They are both wrong. The man, regardless of how terrible his day had been, should have had the courtesy to call. He should have communicated to his wife at some point in the exchange that he needed a little alone time. Not "Just leave me a alone," but "Today was absolutely terrible. I'll explain later, but right now I just need a bit of time to myself."

The wife was right to be worried and hysterical, and when people are worried they get angry, but she should have been able to read that now was not the time to press for an explanation. Not that that justifies the violence.

If the roles had been reversed and the man had been at home waiting while the woman took some time to herself, my answer would be the same.

I don't think the question should be "Why can't we harm women?" I think the question should be "Why shouldn't we harm each other?" This is the discussion we should be having. Why does the question have to be man vs woman? Gender has little to do with it.

And this is basically what I've been saying.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

I had a girlfriend once that full on punched me in the face from time to time. We would just be doing our thing and then I'd catch a fist to the jaw. Needless to say she didn't last very long. It was ridiculous. I do stick to the principle that a man shouldn't hit a girl unless the man is in a threatening situation or the woman is attacking his wife or significant other, but even then I say that its far better to restrain a woman than it is to actually bludgeon. With the gf that would hit me I would typically wrap up around her arms for awhile till she realized I wasn't in the mood to play. I wouldn't ever hurt her while I would do it, I would just wait till she caught on, release her and then I would drive home and make it obvious that I didn't care for it.

I figure if a woman ever attacks your kids, feel free to take her down. If a woman comes at you with a knife, gun or other weapon feel free to knock her out. If a woman ever attacks your wife or significant other, try to restrain her, get in between or if all else fails its your call whether or not to use force. If they just come at you, try to restrain and if that doesn't work, push and shove then be a gentleman and run like crazy. If you can't run, feel free to use force.

As for the kid getting killed, that is crazy. I don't know what 11 year old girl could kill a boy by hitting him in the chest or why that boy simply didn't try to escape. I'm just really in shock about the situation and don't know what to think.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

They are both wrong. The man, regardless of how terrible his day had been, should have had the courtesy to call. He should have communicated to his wife at some point in the exchange that he needed a little alone time. Not "Just leave me a alone," but "Today was absolutely terrible. I'll explain later, but right now I just need a bit of time to myself."

The wife was right to be worried and hysterical, and when people are worried they get angry, but she should have been able to read that now was not the time to press for an explanation. Not that that justifies the violence.

If the roles had been reversed and the man had been at home waiting while the woman took some time to herself, my answer would be the same.

Yes Murphie, you are right and thank you.

[pixiehawk]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

The thought of "guys can't hit girls" was started at a time when it was a widely held believe that any male, no matter how weak he was was stronger than any female, no matter how strong she was. It was thought of at a time when, again, it was believed that any female needed the protection and care of the males in her life, and was unable to look after herself in a real sense. It is saying you can't abuse those you are supposed to look after/those that are weaker than you.

I don't think anyone, of any age, sex, whatever should use violence except in extreme cases where you are protecting you or yours. And in that extreme case it should be just if there is no other was to protect you or yours and just enough to protect you or yours.

[Neomage]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

The thought of "guys can't hit girls" was started at a time when it was a widely held believe that any male, no matter how weak he was was stronger than any female, no matter how strong she was. It was thought of at a time when, again, it was believed that any female needed the protection and care of the males in her life, and was unable to look after herself in a real sense. It is saying you can't abuse those you are supposed to look after/those that are weaker than you.

I don't think anyone, of any age, sex, whatever should use violence except in extreme cases where you are protecting you or yours. And in that extreme case it should be just if there is no other was to protect you or yours and just enough to protect you or yours.

And I think this belief developed way back in the primal days of men. Why? Because, at the time, women where superior to men, or at the very least equal. Say you had a tribe of 10 men and 10 women. Say the men go out to hunt, but something happens and only one survives. That one man can still mate with all 10 women, giving birth to 10 children. Now, if the women went out to hunt, and only one survived, you would have 10 men and one woman. Doesn't work out so well for keeping the tribe alive. On top of this, woman where the only people who could nurse babies, meaning they where needed at home.

Eventually, civilizations started developing and with them, came safety. Goign otu into the wilderness was no longer as dangerous, and, on top of that, tribes where bigger so a few losses didn't matter as much. Women however, continued in their role as the homekeepers, not because they couldn't go out, but because they didn't want to, they where used to taking care of the house, like their mothers and grandmothers. Over time however, this led to the misconception that women couldn't do these things, and where thus, inferior.

I am a caucasian male, but I am a huge advocate of equality. Personally, I think the way we treat people in today's society is just plain wrong. Do you know how many black and african-american support groups there are out there? Take for example, my favorite one: The United Negro College Fund. Where is the United Asian College Fund? The United Latino College Fund? They don't exist? Why? There is no United Caucasian College Fund either. Certainly no United Siberian College Fund or United Arab College Fund.

It is not just limited to race either. Jewish people get HUGE benefits in the world today, because they where wronged by the Nazis in WWII. But there where millions of other, non-Jewish people wronged by the Nazis as well. Why do homosexuals get no support whatsoever? They where prosecuted the same way the Jewish people where. Yet here we are, actually protesting against gay marriage. Only one state has legalized gay marriage, while 26 have banned it completely!

Giving people advantages because they where wronged in the past is not the way to equality. Treating people equally is the way to equality. The past is behind us now, and while it is good to remember the past, it is not good to live in it. If we continue to try and make up for past wrongs, we are only increasing the gap between different people, especially if we are not providing benefits to those wronged equally.

[Feba]

Re: "Guys can't hit girls." What are your thoughts?

Onion: were. Seriously dude.