CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

[Murphie]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

That's a pretty ridiculous mindset to have in this day and age. You are not obligated to stay at a job forever. And you are not obligated to take any job offered to you. Have you no sense of self-worth?

If things are not "working out," for whatever reason, you owe it to yourself to figure out if that means you can work through it or if it's time to cut your losses. The same goes for your employer. Or your spouse.

[DanteWolfWood]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

I don't find that self-worth, I find that selfish

This "self-worth" is why its become almost strange for kids to have both their biological parents together by the time they begin school

EDIT: and yes you are obligated to put food on the table especially if people are depending on you and YES you are obligated to stay with the one you married. You made a vow to stay together till death and for better or worse.

Required, no; but Obligated, yes

[Murphie]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

Wait, what?

I'm talking about the workplace. If you have no self-worth then you will take any job offered to you. If you have some, then you will take the job that is right for you and your career.

And who said anything about not putting food on the table? And for crying out loud no, you are not obligated to stay with the person you married. If you are both unhappy, and you've tried to make it work, then it's better to split. Even if you have kids. Heck, sometimes, especially if you have kids. A broken home is sometimes better than a home with two parents who hate each other.

[DanteWolfWood]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

Sorry, read your post too fast, forgive me for jumping the gun.

I see what you are saying and I agree when it comes down to the worse of the worse, but a 50% divorce rate is just ridiculous. I would personally love to see it down to single digit, but alas I doubt that will happen.

Lastly, let me say; I am not saying that if you have had a divorce you are worse or inferior to a couple who worked through their problems. Hell, I am adopted by a woman who has been through a divorce, and I wouldn't dare degrade my own mother.

I just honestly believe most, if not some, of the divorces could have been worked with some patience and (dare say I) unconditional love.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

Anyone sane already does.

If anyone sane did, there would be less divorce.

While your marriage might be good for you, in the long run, it could be very very bad for others. There's also the fact that if you had left, you might have had an equally or more fulfilling life, in addition to it being worse. There's far too many ways for it to go for you to act like staying married is the only option for everyone.And what good would that do? Many of them may still be unhappy. It might even be made worse. Then you've done nothing but waste a year of their lives (we don't get that many!). And for what; to prevent a few broken hearts on the part of people like your daughter? Don't get me wrong, it sucks that that happened, but making divorce MORE of a pain isn't going to improve the situation (not to mention that, again, the government needs to take far less interest in marriage, not more)

Would you really want your daughter to be stuck with someone who couldn't take responsibility for himself? Or be stuck in an unhappy marriage because she couldn't get a divorce? Spouses tend to have quite a few legal rights-- one could seriously screw with the other if they were angry or unhappy enough to want to separate, and you'd basically have to live with it for the year.

When did I say my marriage was good? I said I've been through a lot and that includes severe physical abuse, adultery, and drug/alcohol issues....and that was just the first 4 years. I'd say that falls in the very very bad catagory. Yes, I could have filed for a divorce but I didn't. I did remove me and the children from the situation and make my husband understand that there were problems. I also told him that no problem is too big to be solved as long as we support one another and love one another. He saw that we needed to work on things and he needed to work on being sober. It's been over 20 years now that he's not had a drop to drink or taken any illegal substances. It's also been over 20 years that he's not touched me or the children in an abusive manner. I couldn't be more proud of the time and effort that we put into our marriage and into one another. THAT is what a marriage is about.

Yes, there are marriages that have to be dissolved because of severe abuse issues, drug/alcohol problems, etc that can't be resolved and I wholeheartedly support those decisions. No one should be forced to stay in an unbearable situation like those are. BUT too many people don't even bother trying because it is so damn easy to just get a divorce. People get divorced for asinine issues many times. My ex-son-in-law's reason for divorcing my daughter "Because she's a bad wife and God told me she needs to be punished." Ooooooook. People get divorced because they are bored.....who doesn't get bored at some time in your life!? Does that mean that you give up on your marriage because the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence??

I am NOT saying that people shouldn't get divorced so don't go off on a tangent. I'm saying that divorces should not be as easy as they are. Everything is so quick and easy in our lives right now and some things should not be. Yes, I would want my daughter to stick it out for a year and see if they could have saved their marriage. (And that is the exact same advice I gave her too.) At least she did try to and he was the one that gave up. It gives her great comfort to know that she tried her best but he didn't. One year of your life is a blip. Is it better to take a year and try everything you possibly can to save your marriage and improve your life by knowing you tried or to live the 50+ years wondering if maybe you could have tried harder? I'd rather not have regrets. (As I have said previously, I'm talking about an average marriage here and not one that has some major issues as outlined above. Most marriages are average marriages that people throw away like they change their undies.)

I'm sorry if you all think that marriage is disposable and vows/promises are made to be broken, I don't. I respect a person that works at something even though the odds are against them. There is no one in this world that I respect more than my husband who beat the odds many times when he could have just walked away. Something a very old and good friend said to me before he passed away "Everyone walks the path of life and at times we come to a crossroad. One path is the quick and easy path and the other is the more difficult path, always take the difficult path because it is the right path. It make take longer but in the end you'll have more respect for yourself and others."

[DanteWolfWood]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

If anyone sane did, there would be less divorce.




When did I say my marriage was good? I said I've been through a lot and that includes severe physical abuse, adultery, and drug/alcohol issues....and that was just the first 4 years. I'd say that falls in the very very bad catagory. Yes, I could have filed for a divorce but I didn't. I did remove me and the children from the situation and make my husband understand that there were problems. I also told him that no problem is too big to be solved as long as we support one another and love one another. He saw that we needed to work on things and he needed to work on being sober. It's been over 20 years now that he's not had a drop to drink or taken any illegal substances. It's also been over 20 years that he's not touched me or the children in an abusive manner. I couldn't be more proud of the time and effort that we put into our marriage and into one another. THAT is what a marriage is about.

Yes, there are marriages that have to be dissolved because of severe abuse issues, drug/alcohol problems, etc that can't be resolved and I wholeheartedly support those decisions. No one should be forced to stay in an unbearable situation like those are. BUT too many people don't even bother trying because it is so damn easy to just get a divorce. People get divorced for asinine issues many times. My ex-son-in-law's reason for divorcing my daughter "Because she's a bad wife and God told me she needs to be punished." Ooooooook. People get divorced because they are bored.....who doesn't get bored at some time in your life!? Does that mean that you give up on your marriage because the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence??

I am NOT saying that people shouldn't get divorced so don't go off on a tangent. I'm saying that divorces should not be as easy as they are. Everything is so quick and easy in our lives right now and some things should not be. Yes, I would want my daughter to stick it out for a year and see if they could have saved their marriage. (And that is the exact same advice I gave her too.) At least she did try to and he was the one that gave up. It gives her great comfort to know that she tried her best but he didn't. One year of your life is a blip. Is it better to take a year and try everything you possibly can to save your marriage and improve your life by knowing you tried or to live the 50+ years wondering if maybe you could have tried harder? I'd rather not have regrets. (As I have said previously, I'm talking about an average marriage here and not one that has some major issues as outlined above. Most marriages are average marriages that people throw away like they change their undies.)

I'm sorry if you all think that marriage is disposable and vows/promises are made to be broken, I don't. I respect a person that works at something even though the odds are against them. There is no one in this world that I respect more than my husband who beat the odds many times when he could have just walked away. Something a very old and good friend said to me before he passed away "Everyone walks the path of life and at times we come to a crossroad. One path is the quick and easy path and the other is the more difficult path, always take the difficult path because it is the right path. It make take longer but in the end you'll have more respect for yourself and others."

Tell your ex-son in law that the bible teaches the only valid excuse for a man to leave a women is adultery AND even then, it teaches if you really love your wife, adultery won't even put you asunder.

(book of Hosea)

[Ameroth]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

Tell your ex-son in law that the bible teaches the only valid excuse for a man to leave a women is adultery AND even then, it teaches if you really love your wife, adultery won't even put you asunder.

(book of Hosea)

Woah. News flash! Not everyone in this country holds the bible to the same standards as religious people. No offense, but I've grown tired of religious people deciding how our country should work based on what "God" says.

[Telera]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

We're all sick of something on that tangent. I'm tired of elitist atheists who assume anyone religious has sub-par intelligence and reasoning skills, but you don't see me whining about it. (No, not referring to you.)

Note that this is not all atheists, as the vast majority of my friends are atheists or agnostics, but at least they're respectful and are fun to debate with. Most of the ones I run into on the internet, however, are just overly-vocal asshats with a complex.

[Armando]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

Pre-emptive strike: This is not turning into a religious person vs atheist person debate.

Both sides have their asshats, Ameroth has a point, and I think he also misunderstood DanteWolfWood. I think Dante was just pointing out that if TGM's son-in-law is divorcing because "she's a bad wife and God told me she needs to be punished", he needs to double-check his Bible 'cuz that's not how stuff works according to Catholic doctrines and whatnot.

Rerail!

[Telera]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

1. I edited for clarity.

2. I have a right to say I'm sick of the elitists in the atheist camp the same he has the right to say he's sick of the zealot-freaks in the religious one.

Cheers.

[Feba]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

If anyone sane did, there would be less divorce.

Wrong. Sometimes things just don't work out. People can fall out of love as well, you know, and if marriage in any context other than a sign of love is appalling.

I couldn't be more proud of the time and effort that we put into our marriage and into one another. THAT is what a marriage is about.

Like I said, your marriage was good in the long run. That doesn't, however, mean that the same holds true for everyone, or even most people.

I'm saying that divorces should not be as easy as they are.

And by making divorces more difficult, you will make the situation much worse than it already is. People in loveless relationships will suffer for it. People in abusive relationships will suffer for it (whether you want them too or not, if you make the process more bureaucratic it WILL happen). People who have found someone they love more will suffer for it, and of course their spouse will have to have them in their lives longer and suffer it as well. There is simply no reason why divorce should be made difficult-- again, if anything, governments need to abolish their laws governing marriage, and let people control it as they see fit. If your church requires more work before a divorce, that's your church-- you can leave them, or you can work through it if it matters to you. The government should just butt out of it, really.

One year of your life is a blip.

Perhaps. Our entire lives are blips. One year is a huge part of that, though. Especially considering most people marry young, forcing them to stay in a relationship longer than they want to can also cause huge long term negative effects on their lives (they could miss an opportunity to find someone they would love; miss out on the ability to perform a job that could start an excellent career; the list goes on). One year is only a blip from the perspective of a lifetime if you don't appreciate life. One year is huge. One year is a ton of possibilities, and a ton of time to suffer.

I'm sorry if you all think that marriage is disposable and vows/promises are made to be broken,

Wrong. I personally have no interest in getting married, however I do take promises seriously. However, it's none of the government's business, and frankly none of yours. It would be no more right for you to go around telling couples that wish to separate "no, you have to suffer together" than it would be for me to go around telling couples that love each other "Sorry, you can't see each other again". Both of them are interfering where you aren't wanted or needed, and causing others to suffer needlessly, on the off chance that it might improve their lives in the long run.

There is no one in this world that I respect more than my husband who beat the odds many times when he could have just walked away.

On a side note, why in the world do people always give such credit to people that screw up their lives, and manage to get them back on track? Why does nobody seem to advocate the whole "Don't screw up your life in the first place, even if you do get it back it's going to have consequences" angle? I mean, it makes more sense to reward the driver that stays on the road than the one that drives off it, gets stuck in a ditch, and manages to get someone passing by to help tow them out.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

And by making divorces more difficult, you will make the situation much worse than it already is. People in loveless relationships will suffer for it. People in abusive relationships will suffer for it (whether you want them too or not, if you make the process more bureaucratic it WILL happen). People who have found someone they love more will suffer for it, and of course their spouse will have to have them in their lives longer and suffer it as well. There is simply no reason why divorce should be made difficult-- again, if anything, governments need to abolish their laws governing marriage, and let people control it as they see fit. If your church requires more work before a divorce, that's your church-- you can leave them, or you can work through it if it matters to you. The government should just butt out of it, really.

Perhaps. Our entire lives are blips. One year is a huge part of that, though. Especially considering most people marry young, forcing them to stay in a relationship longer than they want to can also cause huge long term negative effects on their lives (they could miss an opportunity to find someone they would love; miss out on the ability to perform a job that could start an excellent career; the list goes on). One year is only a blip from the perspective of a lifetime if you don't appreciate life. One year is huge. One year is a ton of possibilities, and a ton of time to suffer.

As I said before, I'm talking about average marriages and there is no severe abuse in an average marriage. Also, I've said no where in any of my statements that the couple must live together while working on their marriage. In fact, being apart can help a couple decide if this is what they want while they go to therapy and work on themselves.

And people will SUFFER if they take a year of their lives to be a responsible adult and do what they SHOULD BE doing in the first place....work on their marriage?? Holy hell, seriously thats the most f**ked up thing someone could say. No one is suffering when they are doing something that they should have been doing from the first moment of their relationship. But thats the misinformed attitude that people have, marriage is all flowers and candy and it should miraculously be good all the time. Marriage is one of the hardest things you will ever do in your life but it is also the most rewarding thing you will ever do. You know who suffers? The children in a relationship. The children who hear and see the fighting and blame themselves. If only they had picked up their toys... If only they hadn't broken that vase.... If only they hadn't been good.... That's suffering.

And I do NOT believe in this "I fell out of love" bulls**t either. If you are working on your marriage, there is no falling out of love.....your marriage becomes even stronger and you fall more deeply in love. You found someone else you love more!!?? WTF!? Why were you looking in the god damn first place?? It does NOT "just happen" either so don't try and feed me that line of bulls**t. If you are looking for love then you are NOT WORKING ON YOUR MARRIAGE!

Marriage isn't some running towards one another in a sun lit flower filled field with your arms open and soft music playing in the background. Marriage is getting angry because he didn't call home and went out after work but then talking it out the next day and he realizes he has to call you from now on. Marriage is arguing about how much money she spent on that designer sweater that she really wanted and in the end she realizes that big expenses like that need to be talked about first because money is tight. Marriage is getting into bed and running your hands down his stomach and he tells you no because he has a meeting early in the morning and you feel unloved and undesirable but he makes up for it some other night. Marriage is the horror of holding your weak wife up over the toilet and keeping back her hair from her mouth as she's vomiting uncontrollably because she's dying of cancer and you can't imagine your life without her and as you hold her up you pray that she lives just one more day. Marriage is working your ass off every single day of the rest of your life understanding yourself and your spouse, knowing both of your wants and desire, communicating everything to one another, not agreeing on everything but always respecting one another, and realizing that love isn't all flowers and candy like everything you heard but a long, exhausting, beautiful miraculous journey that you never want to give up.


These are my last words on this subject. Marriage is not some simple little thing you do and if it works out GREAT! but if it doesn't no big deal....on to the next person. I'm passionate about marriage because it is the foundation to a family. People piss and moan about the condition of our children, of our society, and yet they develop attitudes like this that families are disposable and its no big deal. It IS a big deal and the condition of our society proves it. If anyone thats been married for 15+ consecutive years would like to debate the finer points of marriage, I have no problems with that and you can PM me.

On a side note, why in the world do people always give such credit to people that screw up their lives, and manage to get them back on track? Why does nobody seem to advocate the whole "Don't screw up your life in the first place, even if you do get it back it's going to have consequences" angle? I mean, it makes more sense to reward the driver that stays on the road than the one that drives off it, gets stuck in a ditch, and manages to get someone passing by to help tow them out.

Because Feba, no one in this world is perfect, even you. We all make mistakes and if we truly love ourselves and others, we forgive. Love, compassion, forgiveness, respect...simple things that no one should live their life without. He made mistakes and I have the compassion to forgive him and the love to respect him for all the hard work it took for him to get back on track.

[Feba]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

Also, I've said no where in any of my statements that the couple must live together while working on their marriage.

It doesn't matter if they live together or not-- they still have to deal with each other, and they still have the marriage interfering with their lives (again, if they want to form a new relationship)

do what they SHOULD BE doing in the first place....work on their marriage??

Wrong. It's forcing people to stay in a marriage they don't want to be in that causes suffering, not working on a marriage. And what they "should be" doing is up to them, not you.

The children who hear and see the fighting and blame themselves.

And by forcing marriages like that to stay together, the children have that fighting and arguing drawn out over said year, instead of being able to have their parents separate and then try to be civil.

And I do NOT believe in this "I fell out of love" bulls**t either.

Well tough, it happens.

It does NOT "just happen" either

Again, it does happen.

It has nothing to do with whether you work on your marriage or not, sometimes you're simply unable to love a person any longer, no matter how hard you try. If that hasn't happened to you, great, but it does happen to others.

Marriage is not some simple little thing you do

Nobody has suggested it's easy.

I'm passionate about marriage

Obviously. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about your own marriage, or the marriages of people you care about, but other people don't share the same opinions. Again, how would you feel if someone forced their views of marriage on to you?

it is the foundation to a family.

I have to disagree. The foundation of a family is love, not some bonding ritual. I have some cousins who's parents divorced (their father was gay, it was somewhat of an arranged marriage), and they're some of the brightest and hardest working people I know. They still have a positive relationship with both of their parents; it wouldn't be good for anyone to be stuck in that relationship. I was raised by my mother since I was about a year old, and that two person family was also much better than if they had stayed married.

, and yet they develop attitudes like this that families are disposable and its no big deal.

As above, marriage != family. I have a family, even though my parents were divorced-- one of them is not a part of it, and I'm better for it. My cousins have a family, even though their parents are divorced-- they're both a part of it, and they've turned out great so far. Millions of people in this country have a great family, even after a divorce. The problem you're talking about isn't in the dissolution of a marriage, it's in people who likely would not have raised their family well in the first place.

Because Feba, no one in this world is perfect, even you.

I'm not saying he should be shunned, I'm saying that people that don't screw their lives up in the first place don't get nearly enough credit. Your words sound nice, but they still don't explain that.

[Mhurron]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

Marriage isn't some running towards one another in a sun lit flower filled field with your arms open and soft music playing in the background. Marriage is getting angry because he didn't call home and went out after work but then talking it out the next day and he realizes he has to call you from now on. Marriage is arguing about how much money she spent on that designer sweater that she really wanted and in the end she realizes that big expenses like that need to be talked about first because money is tight. Marriage is getting into bed and running your hands down his stomach and he tells you no because he has a meeting early in the morning and you feel unloved and undesirable but he makes up for it some other night. Marriage is the horror of holding your weak wife up over the toilet and keeping back her hair from her mouth as she's vomiting uncontrollably because she's dying of cancer and you can't imagine your life without her and as you hold her up you pray that she lives just one more day. Marriage is working your ass off every single day of the rest of your life understanding yourself and your spouse, knowing both of your wants and desire, communicating everything to one another, not agreeing on everything but always respecting one another, and realizing that love isn't all flowers and candy like everything you heard but a long, exhausting, beautiful miraculous journey that you never want to give up.

I am really depressed now, I'm going to go cut myself.

There is only one thing missing from all that. The phrase 'marriage is supposed to be.' It's not viewed that way anymore, the majority of people view marriage as a cheap, temporary thing. They don't try not to be assholes, they don't try to think of other people.

What marriage is and what marriage is supposed to be have become very different things.

[Kittyneko]

Re: CA: Gay people to be miserable, too!

I don't see any reason for gay people to be not allowed to marry..

If because of what is written in a book; the book is written by humans (not Allah Himself). Humans with a civilization, society and intelligence of 2000 years ago. I'd like to think we kind of evolved beyond that.

No offense to religions; just a way of looking at the holy books.

My personal opinion: The holy books have great morales, but are written by humans. What is divine and what not, can be talked over for ages.
Allah loves everyone. Even gay people are made by Him.

To each their own. As long as you can live happy together, you can buy eachother a ring to show commitment. Have a ceremony of your own if you want. Well, if a state's government for some reason decides to live by rules made by people that long ago..
What matters most, is believing in yourself and eachother.