How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

[Feba]

I saw this question brought up somewhere else, and it got some interesting responses. They both have a party buying a copy of a media, and distributing it to hundreds of thousands of people without royalties going to the artist. They both "harm" creators of content, and they both are widely used and very popular. The biggest difference is that a library only has a single copy-- however, most libraries have copiers nearby that people can use to take pages from books. There's also no way to know if someone copied content off the media outside the library.

So, other than the fact that one of them isn't getting sued, what's the difference?

[Balfree]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

A great question, I guess there's no simple answer... I thought libraries had some sort of arrangement with the authors or their correspondants...

[Ellipses]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

The Dewey decimal system.

[Balfree]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

Isnt that just a way of classifying/categorizing the items?

[Mhurron]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

The library pays more then the average person to lend you those items and you return them. When was the last time you downloaded a torrent that:

A - Paid special license costs to make the material available temporarily to people
B - Returned the downloaded material.

If you don't think there's a difference, go ahead and try mass photocopying of everything in the building.

[Callisto]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

I've met hot girls at the library.

Plus Bittorrent doesn't call me 4 times a week about an overdue cookbook.

[DakAttack]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

Reading is good for you.

[Akashimo]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

And now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

[Ziero]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

One of them lets people temporarily borrow something for free while the other just gives it away?

Unless you give back your movies, music and other torrented junk when you're done.

P2P file sharing is to a library as a video rental place is to you copying and printing other people's books and freely distributing them.

One lends, the other gives, I don't see how it's that hard of a concept.

[Feba]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

A - Paid special license costs to make the material available temporarily to people

I've never heard of libraries paying more for their materials. on the other hand, I have heard of libraries taking in used books. Either way, they're still buying copyrighted materials and giving them away, the initial cost isn't really that important since there isn't a limit on how often that's going to happen.

B - Returned the downloaded material.

One of them lets people temporarily borrow something for free while the other just gives it away?

The thing is though, like I said, they not only allow but encourage copying. Whether you return the original source is irrelevant, since there's still a very real possibility (if not likelihood) that you will copy the material while it's in your possession. Addition, possession of the source does not actually change the fact that it's not contributing any money to the artist of the work.

Also, I'd say there's a pretty good likelihood that most people DO "return" things they torrent, insofar as they delete them. Hard drive space is limited, and people are unlikely to keep around movies, books, and so on that they will not use again. Mhurron, if you think there's a difference, try downloading everything on TPB. I don't think you'll have much luck getting it to fit on a hard drive.

Reading is good for you.

There are tons of book torrents out there. I've personally seen at least three trackers devoted to nothing but textbooks. There are even more out there for rare novels and such.

[Mhurron]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

I've never heard of libraries paying more for their materials

Well then, it must not happen.

The thing is though, like I said, they not only allow but encourage copying

Fair use. Look it up. Copying one article for your personal use is fair use, the whole magazine/book, not so much.

No matter how you slice it, downloading that Anime was illegal. So is copying the whole thing verbatim from the library.

[Feba]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

Well then, it must not happen.

Hence

Either way, they're still buying copyrighted materials and giving them away, the initial cost isn't really that important since there isn't a limit on how often that's going to happen.

I know perfectly well what fair use is. That doesn't mean that the library has any system in place to make sure you did not copy the entire work; and if they did know you had, they probably couldn't care less.

So is copying the whole thing verbatim from the library.

Exactly. That's the point, how is it that torrents are considered bad, libraries ok, even though they're both facilitating the exact same process? I'm not bringing this up to ease my torrential guilt; I don't have any respect for traditional copyright, and especially not the people who enforce it. Even if I did I have restricted my torrenting to things I can't buy (region), things which are legal anyway, and gotten rid of almost all of my pirated goods. I just consider it very interesting, almost like the war on drugs, how some substances are considered good things, but ones which are extremely similar are shunned, prosecuted, and imprisoned.

[Ziero]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

I've never heard of libraries paying more for their materials. on the other hand, I have heard of libraries taking in used books. Either way, they're still buying copyrighted materials and giving them away, the initial cost isn't really that important since there isn't a limit on how often that's going to happen.

And that's where you're wrong. Libraries don't give anything away, they let you borrow an item with the expressed assumption that you will return it. If they lose that book they have to go buy another.

The thing is though, like I said, they not only allow but encourage copying. Whether you return the original source is irrelevant, since there's still a very real possibility (if not likelihood) that you will copy the material while it's in your possession. Addition, possession of the source does not actually change the fact that it's not contributing any money to the artist of the work.

As Mhurron pointed out, Fair Use allows the copying of some copywritten literature (not sure if it extends to other media, but I doubt it) but it does not allow you to copy entire works. Meaning copying one or two articles or pages is ok, but copying the entire book then handing it to all your friends isn't.

Also, I'd say there's a pretty good likelihood that most people DO "return" things they torrent, insofar as they delete them. Hard drive space is limited, and people are unlikely to keep around movies, books, and so on that they will not use again. Mhurron, if you think there's a difference, try downloading everything on TPB. I don't think you'll have much luck getting it to fit on a hard drive.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA No.

Download, print, delete. There, now you have a full reproduction of a book while saving the harddrive space and not "returning" anything.

I don't see where the debate lies in this subject. A Library is a place where you can temporarily borrow media where Torrents and P2P stuff copy and produce unlicensed, illegal copies of something for mass distribution.

[Feba]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

Libraries don't give anything away,

Yes, they do. Unless you only consider them to be letting people borrow ink and paper, in which case you have no reason to be supporting copyright law anyway. They are giving away the knowledge, ideas, entertainment, and so on that the books, music, games, software, and so on that the material they lend contains.

Meaning copying one or two articles or pages is ok, but copying the entire book then handing it to all your friends isn't.

I know perfectly well what fair use is. That doesn't mean that the library has any system in place to make sure you did not copy the entire work; and if they did know you had, they probably couldn't care less.

As in, what fair use is is irrelevant, the library still supports, if not encourages, piracy.

Download, print, delete. There, now you have a full reproduction of a book while saving the harddrive space and not "returning" anything.

Quite honestly, that's the stupidest point I've ever seen. You'd spend more on printer ink and paper than you would just buying more storage media. Not to mention you are actually HELPING my case, since you'd need to have someone to PUT all that paper. Either way, again, most people aren't going to spend money to store things that they're unlikely to use again; those things are far more likely to be deleted than backed up.

A Library is a place where you can temporarily borrow media where Torrents and P2P stuff copy and produce unlicensed, illegal copies of something for mass distribution.

No. A library allows you to use a piece of media for free. It's incredibly easy for you to copy it before you return it, and thus have a permanent copy. P2P allows you to use a piece of media for free. It's incredibly easy for you to not delete it, and thus have a permanent copy.

Even if it were possible, somehow, to keep people from copying library media, it is not the media itself which is valuable. It is the content inside it. The media itself (be it a plastic CD, or ink and paper) is very nearly worthless. Most people, for most media, only need to see it once or twice; be it a movie, TV show, book, or so on. If they need to see it again, all they would need to do would be to go back to the library.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: How is torrenting (or other P2P file sharing) any different than a library?

The biggest difference is that a library only has a single copy-- however, most libraries have copiers nearby that people can use to take pages from books. There's also no way to know if someone copied content off the media outside the library.

If they could find a way to come into your house and check to see if you were photocoping books, I'm sure they'd do it. They would love to have some way of knowing how to sue you. Personally I have a Sony Ebook for my books and yes on occasion I would actually purchase them, usually work related ones. (I got tired of so many books around the house and our local library is picky about what used books they take in.) Otherwise I know how to use BT and I do shamelessly. I have 6 hard drives and all are damn near full and I'm too busy to keep up with burning the stuff too so I just keep buying new hds! LOL