Can capitalism survive?

[Feba]

It's hard to argue that the future is coming. Robots, nanotechnology, and AI all are very promising in their abilities. However, what will humans be left to do once we are bested?

The transitional phase will likely be painful-- laborers, who have already started to be replaced in manufacturing plants, will probably be the first to be lost. Other low paying jobs-- customer service, retail, cooking (in fast food, at least) will probably go soon afterwards. Obviously the only thing keeping robots from being able to replace humans would be government legislation against it, but how much could that help? How long could it last in the face of businesses demanding their right to incredibly cheap labor?

How will humans be able to earn anything, when anything they can do can be done cheaper, quicker, and more efficiently by machines? What is to keep robots from manufacturing robots?

More than all this, though, in a world that doesn't need humans to function, what will we do?

Obviously, the machines could decide we should be eliminated, and kill us all. That would probably go down as one of the worse engineering mistakes humans have made.

Humans could sort themselves into a caste system, based on where their ancestors were at the time when we were replaced. But that would be very unfair, and probably lead to a revolution eventually.

Humans might try to go into the arts, but the market there is already very hard to survive in, and a massive amount of people doing it would make it even worse. And AI could eventually adapt to cover even that vocation.



So what do humans do when there is nothing that requires us? Do we die off? Do we live with nothing to do but have fun? Do we look for new things to do, and hope the machines cannot best us there? How are resources allocated by the machines? How long can resources last when there is nothing keeping people from getting everything they want?

Unless there is some sort of unforeseen wall in the progression of robotics and AI, I don't see how human replacement could not be an eventual outcome. So, what happens when humans are replaced by their own creations?

[Eiyoko]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

Technology is meant to make our lives more convenient, but it only complicates things, steals jobs, and screws up how we do work when we actually get any, too.

Not to mention it causes people to initiate drama over MMO endgame.

[Feba]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

Eiyoko, perhaps, but what about a society in which technology has taken over every job?

[Eiyoko]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

Eiyoko, perhaps, but what about a society in which technology has taken over every job?

I think we would cease to exist by that point...that, or something too similar for our own good.

Next thing you know they'll be making fight simulators that are so real, you actually FEEL THE PAIN when you get kicked in the wherever-it-hurts-for-you.

...or did they already make one of those?

[Feba]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

They have indeed. But you're not paying any attention to the point of this thread.

[WovenDarkness]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

Eiyoko, perhaps, but what about a society in which technology has taken over every job?

Hope and pray that we aren't dealt with in a very "Terminator: The Movie in Real Life Fashion."

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

Capitalism is never destined to survive. The structure itself is the same as that of the ouroboros, its a serpent that continually takes bites of itself, devouring the very structure that it is till eventually it dies off after reaching the point where its pain throws the beast into shock, or it simply has eaten too much to live. Capitalism might be the thing that works the best right now, while leaving inhumanity and suffering in its wake, but one day we will need to find a way to make another system work or it will truly bring grave pain to us all. Lets hope one day its gets like Star trek and we can just replicate all the things we need. I don't see things ever changing in a universe with finite resources and an ever increasing population unless we all take a gigantic step back and live in equilibrium, but then again, who is willing to take such a step back?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

The transitional phase will likely be painful-- laborers, who have already started to be replaced in manufacturing plants, will probably be the first to be lost.

This has already come to pass. It really started to hit in the mid to late 70's and by the beginning of the 80's was the reason for many set backs in factories. Back in the day to get a factory job was an indication of stability. Health benefits, dental benefits, labour unions, pensions etc meant that this was a job for life but then workers came disposable when automation stepped in. My husband/father-in-law/brother-in-law are engineers for GM and between out sourcing and automation, they saw a lot of people devistated. (It has affected our family also.) The ironic thing was, they had a program where you could write up suggestions for the company to streamline things and you would get a % bonus check. The % was based on how much the company saved in a year and many times the suggestions lead to automation and loss of jobs. I can't tell you how many times I heard about people getting a check and six months later they were laid off...sometimes permanently.

Other low paying jobs-- customer service, retail, cooking (in fast food, at least) will probably go soon afterwards. Obviously the only thing keeping robots from being able to replace humans would be government legislation against it, but how much could that help? How long could it last in the face of businesses demanding their right to incredibly cheap labor?

Cheap labour is a huge issue. We are used to a certain standard of living and we expect that standard to continue if we continue doing the same job. The problem is when an employer can get someone else to do the job at a lower price for the same quality they are going to jump on it. With my husbands job, they had to out source quite a bit but then the union called them on it and they had to offer the work to the local first as long as the locals price was competitive. That usually meant doing the job for a lower price than before which always trickles down to wages. There were times when contracts were negotiated that either wages had to be cut or benefits had to be cut because of it. If we can't bend with the wind, we are destined to break.

How will humans be able to earn anything, when anything they can do can be done cheaper, quicker, and more efficiently by machines? What is to keep robots from manufacturing robots?

More than all this, though, in a world that doesn't need humans to function, what will we do?

We need to realize that our way of living is going to change drastically through the years. The longer we fight it, the more painful it will be. It's kind of like the baby boomer generation that wants the "Leave it to Beaver" family structure to stay intact. Mom in her high heels and pearls being home and greeting her husband at the door with a kiss. It's not realistic and nothing stays the same forever. As long as we go with the flow, we'll be fine but there are certainly going to be quite a few people left in the dust.

As far as robots making robots, that already is happening. Granted they are not sentient but they have made many inprovements in that area of research and I believe it will happen.

Obviously, the machines could decide we should be eliminated, and kill us all. That would probably go down as one of the worse engineering mistakes humans have made.

I don't knpw about this. I just can't see this happening. I can see there being issues as in I Robot or Bicentennial Man but a Terminator style future, I just don't think is feasible.

So what do humans do when there is nothing that requires us? Do we die off? Do we live with nothing to do but have fun? Do we look for new things to do, and hope the machines cannot best us there? How are resources allocated by the machines? How long can resources last when there is nothing keeping people from getting everything they want?



Unless there is some sort of unforeseen wall in the progression of robotics and AI, I don't see how human replacement could not be an eventual outcome. So, what happens when humans are replaced by their own creations?

I think there will always be things for us to do. I don't think we'll let machines take over everything. Look at the nostalgia that plagues us all the time. People will get nostalgiac for someone to "real" to hand them their food at McD's or take their temperature at the hospital. Our way of living will change drastically through the years but I don't ever think that the human race will become "outdated" so to say. And don't forget that there are other planets out there waiting to be discovered and "conquered. lol

[DakAttack]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

We wont have to worry about robots in the future. It's scientific fact that the dinosaurs didn't die out, rather they all traveled to the future after attacking Turok's village and slaughtering everybody. It was at that point that they allied themselves with an alien race in a joint effort to destroy humanity. At least that's how I remember it. I could be wrong.

[DR2D2]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

Humans will always be needed to fix the robots when their programming goes faulty(as seems to happen in all forms of technology lately). What will stop humans from becoming obsolite is for humans to stop wanting things to be done for them(the whole point machines were created in the 1st place). I'm not saying get rid of machines, but rather get rid of the widespread overuse of machines to do tasks that humans should be doing(assembly line jobs are a good example).

I don't see machines replacing humans because the differance between humans and machines is that humans have a sence of morality, judgement , and compassion; which machines could never have.

I would worry more about being able to afford necessities(food, clothing, shelter) than if machines are going to replace humans.

[Langley]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

That's not really a problem that's connected to capitalism. The species as a whole, maybe, but capitalism is kind of overreaching. Though if you like the idea of potentially dangerous science, check out the Large Hadron Collider.

[Cometgreen]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

Capitalism might be the thing that works the best right now, while leaving inhumanity and suffering in its wake, but one day we will need to find a way to make another system work or it will truly bring grave pain to us all.

That's not very fair, as capitalism isn't really in effect right now. Not in the US, anyway.

And I can't say what people will do with themselves when robots ARE EVERYWHERE!!! But in the first stage you describe, some jobs may be lost, but prices should also plummet. Plus, you need people to maintain ze robots.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

But in the first stage you describe, some jobs may be lost

We are already at that stage and have been for at least 30 years.

[Feba]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

I don't think we'll let machines take over everything. Look at the nostalgia that plagues us all the time. People will get nostalgiac for someone to "real" to hand them their food at McD's or take their temperature at the hospital. Our way of living will change drastically through the years but I don't ever think that the human race will become "outdated" so to say.

I would disagree-- maybe for a generation or two, but if you look at Japan, caretaker bots are already watching the elderly, and they don't seem to mind.

Humans will always be needed to fix the robots when their programming goes faulty

That's not true at all-- an AI that is above human level intelligence would have no problem fixing any programming errors, not to mention improving it's existing code. I believe computer viruses have already been made that actually go through natural selection and evolution to become even more powerful than what the programmer made-- of course, those are mostly in labs, but still.

I don't see machines replacing humans because the differance between humans and machines is that humans have a sence of morality, judgement , and compassion; which machines could never have.

What makes you think that? Either way it's just electrons firing in a thinking device; for us it's a brain, for a machine it's likely a microprocessor. There's no reason why Machines can't be taught to think just like us.

Though if you like the idea of potentially dangerous science, check out the Large Hadron Collider.

Eh. The chances of robots replacing human workers more and more is a near certainty, whereas the chance of that going wrong are extremely small. I'm more worried about nanomachines than that.

Plus, you need people to maintain ze robots.

Ok, I have to ask, where the hell are people getting the assumption that the robots can't fix themselves?

[Cometgreen]

Re: Can capitalism survive?

We are already at that stage and have been for at least 30 years.

Well in that case, it's not a very big problem, considering unemployment rates have generally improved the last 30 years. So ROBOTS! may have an effect, but obviously not as great as various market forces.

Ok, I have to ask, where the hell are people getting the assumption that the robots can't fix themselves?

Because no robot can match my lube jobs.