2008 Presidential Elections

[Murphie]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

You're precious. Wrong, but still precious.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Alright Murphie.

Explain to me how your voting for someone with opinions you don't agree with, in a system where the popular vote is irrelevant, and the difference between your vote being counted and it not being counted would only matter in an almanac does anything to promote your opinion politically.

[Caspian]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Because theoretically people watch what those votes are for and learn how people feel about key issues. This helps to determine what course of action to take later on. Thats not how it always works, but thats how its supposed to work.
Surprisingly we actually agree on a lot of it. I don't like the electoral college. Granted, the guy I voted for became president because of the electoral college, but its a tool of a different era. When it made it easier to count votes and determine a winner. The world is much smaller now and technology has made it possible to count every last vote.
I don't think a president should have as much power as they do. But I think the same about pretty much every aspect about the federal government. The supreme court has WAY too much power. They were never meant to have any power at all other than keep the executive and legislative branches in line. The individual states should have much more power than they do now. The federal government was originally designed to have very few and limited powers, now they control way too much. Not gonna get into the whole abortion thing, but regardless of whether you're prochoice or prolife the fact remains that its none of the federal government's business. Its a state problem and something people in each state should vote on for themselves.

About Ron Paul: Maybe someone can answer this who knows more about him than I. He's said he wants to get rid of the IRS. Is he saying he wants to get rid of federal taxes? If so how does he expect to pay for anything? Or is he saying he wants to drastically simplify the tax code? That I'm all for and would be behind until the day I die. I'd also like to see a flat tax rate for all brackets. This tiered stuff is bullcrap.
Anyway, like Pai said, this is a really odd election. I really couldn't tell you right off who I would vote for if the Texas primaries meant a damn. I think Huckabee is a great guy and would like to see another Christian in office. I think morals are a very good thing for any politician to have, but Romney has said it and I agree, a good Christian doesn't necessarily make a good politician. Lord knows I'd suck at it. I like to say what I think.

Anyway, lets keep this thread civil, these things have a bad habit of turning south quickly and we'd all like to avoid that.

[Murphie]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Expecting Ron Paul to have a plan for what to do for money in lieu of the IRS is really expecting too much, Caspian.

I find it disturbing that anyone would say that they would want to see Huckabee in office, especially after his "We need to change the Constitution to match God's word" speech the other night. That goes against the very spirit of the Constitution. And it's fucking crazy besides.

You don't have to be religious to have morals. Saying otherwise is stupid. And you're not stupid, Caspian.

Feba - Because it's not that simple. And who says that I'm voting for someone who doesn't have the same viewpoint as I do? No politician is perfect, but waiting around for someone who meets every single ideal I have is a waste of time.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Caspian: I would agree, but take it further. I honestly think that large countries as we have today are downright silly. States should be even smaller, possibly down to the level of citystates with each township being self-governing, and any overreaching government should only be for coordination of efforts for things like self-defense and keeping individual nations from going out of line. More like a UN, for example, than a large government.

I don't know about Ron Paul personally, but I do know about a fair tax movement, http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer , I'm not sure if any major politicians are behind it though.

I agree that the tax code needs to be simplified. The IRS is a huge money sink, and the people who are likely to be able to get better deductions or just avoid tax entirely are also the same people who can easily afford to pay it.

Personally, I'd go for a sales tax only system. Take taxes off necessities, such as foods (as in, soups and bread and veggies; not salmon and chocolate and cake), hygiene items (again, soaps, shampoos, toothpaste; not nail polish and hair spray), etc. Shifts the work of filing taxes from people to businesses, makes it basically impossible to get out of paying taxes, and allows people who aren't using as many resources to pay fewer taxes. But, hell if that's ever going to happen in the US. Our government likes it's bureaucracy.

and would like to see another Christian in office.

you're just a little risk taker, ain't ya?
------------------------------------------

Feba - Because it's not that simple.

Alright. Then explain what the difference is between a simple and straightforward system where your vote doesn't matter and a complex and hard to understand system where your vote doesn't matter.

And who says that I'm voting for someone who doesn't have the same viewpoint as I do? No politician is perfect, but waiting around for someone who meets every single ideal I have is a waste of time.

Exactly. Representative democracy is an outdated relic that was once needed because the population couldn't possibly vote on everything itself. Nowadays, however, all it forces people to do is vote against themselves. Why should you have to vote for any politician in order for your ideals to be voted upon? Why should you not be able to vote for what you want to vote for, instead of being given the mere illusion of choice in the matter?

[Murphie]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Caspian: I would agree, but take it further. I honestly think that large countries as we have today are downright silly.

I'm trying not to laugh at you outright, but seriously, best of luck with this concept. If anything, nations will just get larger in the future. City-states? Seriously? That wouldn't even remotely work outside of a spreadsheet.

The IRS is a huge money sink

Not for the government, it isn't. Or for those of us who enjoy the things that the IRS funds. Which is everyone.

Personally, I'd go for a sales tax only system.

Wouldn't that infringe on states rights?

Take taxes off necessities, such as foods (as in, soups and bread and veggies; not salmon and chocolate and cake), hygiene items (again, soaps, shampoos, toothpaste; not nail polish and hair spray), etc.

Kind of arbitrary splits there. Just because those things don't seem necessary to you doesn't mean they aren't necessary to someone else. And vice versa.

you're just a little risk taker, ain't ya?

Seriously. We already have a Christian in office, and that's been super.

Alright. Then explain what the difference is between a simple and straightforward system where your vote doesn't matter and a complex and hard to understand system where your vote doesn't matter.

Why should I, when you've already made the claim that your vote doesn't matter? Claiming that either is "better" would just make me look like an idiot.

With all your worldly wisdom and experience on this subject, since you've done more research on it than half the people voting (your words) this year, please explain what system WOULD work, and then while you're at it, tell us all how we'd go about implementing this super awesome system that no one else was able to come up with until you came along. Much appreciated.

Exactly. Representative democracy is an outdated relic that was once needed because the population couldn't possibly vote on everything itself. Nowadays, however, all it forces people to do is vote against themselves. Why should you have to vote for any politician in order for your ideals to be voted upon? Why should you not be able to vote for what you want to vote for, instead of being given the mere illusion of choice in the matter?

Because that's not the system we have. Flailing about complaining isn't going to accomplish anything, but in the long term, exercising what power you do have does.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

I'm trying not to laugh at you outright, but seriously, best of luck with this concept.

Like most of my ideas, I don't expect it to ever happen. It's just too dramatic a shift.

If anything, nations will just get larger in the future.

Yep, which I consider very sad, apart from the concept of nations in general.

Not for the government, it isn't. Or for those of us who enjoy the things that the IRS funds.

Compared to alternatives, it is. Well, I suppose the IRS wouldn't need to be removed, just greatly reformed. Either way, you can't argue that the current tax system spends a lot of money that could be put to better use by, for example, not printing forms by the hundreds of thousands, and paying for auditors.

Wouldn't that infringe on states rights?

Not any more than the first amendment infringes on a state's right to censor it's citizens.

Kind of arbitrary splits there. Just because those things don't seem necessary to you doesn't mean they aren't necessary to someone else. And vice versa.

What the hell is arbitrary about it? Show me one person that needs expensive luxury foods or nail polish. People should be able to easily afford to eat and keep themselves in good health (for example, medications), and indulgences (such as cosmetics) and luxuries should be taxed. Unless you can show me why someone would have to eat salmon and chocolate in order to survive, you have no point.

With all your worldly wisdom and experience on this subject, since you've done more research on it than half the people voting (your words) this year, please explain what system WOULD work,

It has nothing to do with research of the candidates. A direct democracy is much better suited to any modern country that wishes to call itself democratic.

and then while you're at it, tell us all how we'd go about implementing this super awesome system that no one else was able to come up with until you came along. Much appreciated.

The concept of a direct democracy has been around for a very long time. Longer than the US. It was feasible on such a large scale until recently, but now it very much is. The electoral college and representatives are relics of an age when there would be no way for the citizens to vote on laws effectively. I would not know exactly where to begin to transition such a large government as the USA over, apart from the fact that it's practically impossible under the current system, however it is not impossible.

, exercising what power you do have does.

Exercising what power, Murphie? The power to +1 a number in an almanac? Exciting!

Seriously, show me how your vote is going to make any difference before you go talking about how you have power in this system.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

If you don't vote, your opinion is worthless. Just saying.

Voting for Clinton or Obama (Ohio primaries are in March). But based on the responses to this thread already, I'm not going to bother explaining why.

I vote every time, so I'll maintain my right to complain about how shitty and corrupt the electoral process is from start to finish. Buncha north-eastern states get to decide who we end up voting for, then we have the electoral college that can be swayed by corporations and lobbyists at the end of it, overriding our votes. And its the electoral college that robs voters of thier faith in the process, because they prove our votes don't matter as much as big money special interest groups.

Did you know that our electoral college members don't get elected by the people themselves? They're appointed by means beyond the publics control. These guys get to decide whether or not to override a particular amount of votes, folks, that's fucked up. That's wrong. They can be paid off and your vote will may mean nothing because of that.

So, as I have in every presidential election thus far, I'm pretty much convinced I'll be doing another write-in as my protest of how the process is at present. Not only for the good candidates that will be silenced by big money special interests, but the candidates of the smaller parties that survive and are denied a voice in the months to come. I'm not loyal to any one party, but North Carolina ignored Green Party votes last time around and the Green Party had done everything the petition process required to get thier people on the ballot. Their voices went unheard and that's about as unamerican as the process gets.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Ok, Murphie. This...
is not working very well
From now on, Haiku.

If your argument
cannot sound good in haiku
You will forfeit this.

[Murphie]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Voting Green Party
Is as useless as voting
For no one at all.

Like much that you say
Your rant is ridiculous
But that's nothing new.

************

Feba I'm sorry
But one day I'll hope you'll see
Just how wrong you are.

It's easy to make
Uneducated Statements
When you're just a kid.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Your First Paragraph
is pretty much exactly
the problem I mean.

Your third and forth ones
only serve to prove that you
are a biased douche.

Although, I agree
with the one that still remains.
BBQ's insane.

[Nuriko]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Voting should be to decide on laws and policies, not to try to guide who the electoral college considers the lesser of two evils.

Why choose the lesser evil? Vote Cthuhlu!

[Malacite]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

Alright Murphie.

Explain to me how your voting for someone with opinions you don't agree with, in a system where the popular vote is irrelevant, and the difference between your vote being counted and it not being counted would only matter in an almanac does anything to promote your opinion politically.

Because it's a right that your forefathers faught and died for, and not voting should be a federal offense in this part of the wolrd. In Sweeden for example, if you don't vote and don't have a damned good excuse they take your name off the list of registered voters and effectively remove your say in politics.

Other countries have much stricter penalties (it's all in Ioccoca's book "Where have all the leaders gone?" which is a great read). Also, in 2000 elections I was only 13 Feba. I could have cared less back then.


Right now this really isn't funny. The USA is a major decline while Russia and especially China are bouncing back and building up their militaries (I seriously have to question China's position on the security council...) and you guys need someone who knows the issues and just as importantly, rally the people.


So what if no single candidate shares all of your views? Go with the one that hits home most. For one, it's your civic duty as a US citizen. For another, no one is perfect. I'm not crazy about Barack's support for Amnesty, but the guy is also all for immigration reform as he stated that giving out drivers licenses to illegals was just a temporary fix to improve road safety. He didn't ignore the fact that the system is broken, but acknowledged it while also citing the serious problem of having these people on the roads with no insurance.


It's hard, if not impossible to find two or more people who share all the same views. Heck, the founding fathers even prohibited the president from appointing "like-minded judges" in the constitution. Fact is you need different view points. And it's one of the reasons I like Barack. He's openly said sever times that if there's someone better he will step aside, and he'll listen to ideas from both parties rather than just going with the general consensus among Democrats because he wants a solution that works for all Americans.

It's refreshing to see someone who honestly wants to work with everyone (not just members of their own party) to get things done. He doesn't claim to know all the answers either, but he does have some good ideas of his own. I'm still in the middle of reading his last book, The Audacity of Hope.





I really believe Barack is what the country needs. A strong, moral leader who can rally the people. He proved it in Iowa when he pulled in over 100,000 new voters including Independents and Republicans. Please, let this man win (and no one shoot him like JFK or Martin Luther King. Good lord not another good guy wasted > <)



Though that reminds me. The news (CNN in particular) is blowing all this racial crap way out of proportion. Barack never once dignified those comments by the Clinton's with a response, and for CNN to say otherwise is a blatant lie in their stupid attempts to pull in ratings. Race is not one of Baracks focus. Far from it really. The guy is concerned about everyone. I'm glad to see that he's trying to distance himself as much as he can from the Black vs White shit that Jessie Jackson and others have tried. That dog won't hunt boys.

And shame on you Lou Dobbs for not seeing the truth and instead rambling on about it like all the others. Usually the guy's on the ball, but he was way off on this one and I wish someone would call him (and Wolf Blitzer) on it. Shit, I'm surprised Cafferty didn't. That guy is awesome, and (like me) thinks that "Barring anything unforseen, Barack will win."


EDIT: There's nothing wrong with the two-party system in and of itself. It was genius on the part of the Founding Fathers. The problem lately has been the people in it and all the partisan bull shit. I'm confident Barack will be able to rise above it though.

[Jonastb]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

as he stated that giving out drivers licenses to illegals was just a temporary fix to improve road safety.

This statement alone is enough for me to NOT vote for Obama.

The Presidents job is to enforce the laws of the United States. Per the above quote, Obama would not only NOT be enforcing the laws, he would be rewarding lawbreakers.

Illegal Immigrants are just that, ILLEGAL.

[Evion]

Re: 2008 Presidential Elections

I will vote for many reasons. The fact that our forefathers fought and died for the right to vote is just one. Also, I may end up voting for Mitt Romney instead. Why? He's from Michigan and so am I. This state is F'ed up right now and he might take some special interest... My prediction: Hilary Vs. Romney. Winner: Hilary Damn, that sux. I wouldn't blame a woman for hating men after her husband cheats. Not that she does, but I'm not willing to take the chance.