Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

[Jarre]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

How is yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre and having an opinion similar at all?

In the Uk if you did this and caused an evacuation, you would be arrested for breach of peace and ensightment to cause panic. If the fire service attend due to an alarm being set off because of it, that person can also get charged with wasting emergency services and face a heavy fine or short imprissonment (mostly a fine though)

[Feba]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Maybe you didn't read the article...

Again, this is thoughtcrime at best. Having the same ideas and even supporting criminal organizations is not a crime. Reading is not a crime. Hurting people is a crime, and she did none of that, at least as far as the court says.

Are you implying I did that?

No, I'm saying you did.
------------------------------------------
Jarre: I'm not saying shouting fire in a crowded theater should be legal, I'm saying that having an opinion and shouting fire is completely different and even thinking of comparing them is ridiculous.

[Jarre]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

The jury was told that she joined an extremist organisation called Jihad Way, set up explicitly to spread terrorist propaganda and support for al Qaida.

Jonathan Sharp, prosecuting, told the court she visited a website linked to the jailed cleric Abu Hamza and stored material about weapons. The court also heard Malik belonged to a social networking website called hi5, describing her interests as "helping the mujaheddin in any way which I can".

In the Terrism Act 2000 int eh Uk I quote

Membership
(1) A person commits an offence if he/she belongs or professes to belong to a proscribed organisation.

A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)
on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, to a fine or to both, or
(b)
on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both.

[DakAttack]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Again, this is thoughtcrime at best. Having the same ideas and even supporting criminal organizations is not a crime. Reading is not a crime. Hurting people is a crime, and she did none of that, at least as far as the court says.

The court said, "Samina Malik was not prosecuted for writing poetry. Ms Malik was convicted of collecting information, without reasonable excuse, of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism.".

So what they did was exactly how I'm aruging it should be done. Nipping their problems in the bud. This isn't thought-crime, espesially in a time where such a threat to their national security is almost palpable.

[Feba]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Jarre: I haven't seen any mention of those groups committing any crimes, nor was she prosecuted for it. They also haven't mentioned anyone in those groups committing any terrorist actions

Dak: Yes, the charges are technically for reading, which as I have already said is not a crime.. What's your point? She is being charged because her thoughts might or might not one day cause her to do something that may or may not actually harm people.

[Jarre]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Feba you have obviously only read one source. This is from the independant newspaper and I push you to read the bottom line a few times. The Guardian newspaper is well known for not having all the facts as well as having poor spelling and grammar. its the "joke broad sheet of the UK"

UK woman found guilty of terror offences
PA
Published: 08 November 2007

Heathrow Airport worker Samina Malik, 23, who called herself the " lyrical terrorist", became the first woman to be convicted under the Terrorism Act 2000 today following an Old Bailey trial.

Malik gave a gasp as the guilty verdict was delivered. She bowed her head and sobbed.

Two of the five female jurors wiped away tears as submissions were made on her behalf to the judge.

Judge Peter Beaumont, the Recorder of London, bailed Malik under what he described as "house arrest" to be sentenced on December 6 and ordered reports into her family background.

He told her: "You have been in many respects a complete enigma to me." He warned her that "all sentencing options remain open".

Malik was arrested in October last year. When her bedroom was searched police found a ringbinder full of documents as well as a bracelet bearing the word "jihad".

They also discovered a sticker on a mirror inside the door, bearing the words "lyrical terrorist".

In one handwritten document found by police, she wrote: "Many opportunities have been given to me but something always holds me back.

"I always sit alone to think and ponder how it would be to unite with the Muslim ummah and to go shoot rocket-launchers, help them load their ammunition, nurse the wounded, and what the atmosphere would be like.

"I wonder what it will be like to be with the Muslims when a mischief kaffir is shot dead ... how it will be when we see our Muslim brothers and sisters go forth with swords in their hands, running towards blessed death with the look of 'I love death more than life' on their shining faces.

"I wonder how it will be on the front line. Without a doubt it is scary. One must be strong physically and mentally.

"I sit and ponder day after day, night after night. I want to have the death of a shaheed (martyr) ... I want the opportunity to take part in the blessed sacred duty of jihad."

Also found were publications from an Islamic extremist group called " Followers of Ahl us-Sunnah Wal-Jammaa'ah" (ASWJ) linked to another group, The Saved Sect, and extremist cleric Sheikh Omar Bakri.

In a box file in the family lounge was a printed-out version of the " declaration of war" by Osama bin Laden, the court heard.

One poem, called The Living Martyrs, said: "For the living martyrs are awakening/ And kuffars world soon to be shaking."

Another line ran: "Let us make Jihad/ Move to the front line/ To chop chop head of kuffar swine".

A second poem was called How to Behead: "It's not as messy or as hard as some may think/ It's all about the flow of the wrist," it read.

Another section said: "No doubt that the punk will twitch and scream/ But ignore the donkey's ass/ And continue to slice back and forth/ You'll feel the knife hit the wind and food pipe/ But Don't Stop/ Continue with all your might".

Discovered on the her computer were The Mujaheddin Poisoner's Handbook, Encyclopaedia Jihad, How To Win In Hand To Hand Combat, How To Make Bombs and Sniper Manual.

The court heard Malik joined an extremist organisation called Jihad Way, set up explicitly to disseminate terrorist propaganda and support for al Qaida.

She also belonged to a website called Hi-5, described in court as similar to social networking sites Facebook or MySpace.

On this she listed her interests as: "Helping the mujaheddin in any way which I can ... I am well known as lyrical terrorist."

Under favourite TV shows, it said: "Watching videos by my Muslim brothers in Iraq, yep the beheading ones, watching video messages by Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri and other videos which show massacres of the kaffirs."

In another internet entry, the court heard, she wrote the names Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Masri, Sheikh Abu Qatada, Sheikh Osama bin Laden and Abu Musa al Zarqawi.

Beneath was written: "May Allah continue to make our mujaheddin brothers firm and strong in war against the kuffar crusaders ... lyrical terrorist."

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke, head of the Metropolitan Police Counter Terrorism Command, said: "Malik held violent extremist views which she shared with other like-minded people over the internet.

"She also tried to donate money to a terrorist group.

"She had the ideology, ability and determination to access and download material which could have been useful to terrorists.

"Merely possessing this material is a serious criminal offence."

Link to article here

Please remember Grizzle and I live in the Uk and are well aware of the our laws whether good or bad and the political situation here with regard to terrosim.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Honestly, yes. I would rather die with my opinions than live in a state that punishes thoughtcrime.

If she had actually harmed people, lock her up. If she's doing stupid things in front of customers, fire her.

The only reason you (and I'm speaking in general here, not to a specific person) don't care is because you don't identify with them.



Which is exactly the problem. Most people don't care about freedoms being infringed until it's their freedoms, and by then it's generally too late. There are plenty of dictatorships that could show you this lesson very easily. They start with minorities, people that the general population is angry at or afraid of, they make them into threats. Then they move on to anyone that disagrees with them, or other groups that pose a threat to their power.
------------------------------------------

The US is very much pussies too. One or two nights ago, we had a shooting in a mall, 8 people killed, 5 people wounded. This morning, they were talking on the news about putting armed guards in malls and increasing police presence in malls. In shopping centers, in the holiday season. Nobody is saying the US is better.



The thing is, you can't compare space heaters and candles to intelligent lifeforms. You could also unplug it or put it out completely, risk of fire goes down to near zero that way, wouldn't that be even better?

Comparing human lives to inanimate objects is a dangerous slippery slope.



It's not the people that are demonizing that are the problem, it's the people believe it, which is actually surprisingly large.

So you see no difference between human thought and a space heater. I feel sorry for you, because the only people that can possibly consider analogies like that correct are the people that it does apply to.


If you think that security is more important than rights, then you deserve neither.

If I could thank you twice each for these, I would.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ziero For This Useful Post:
DakAttack (Today), DakAttack (Today)

. . . Well, apparently Dak can. It's a shame he's the one comparing people to fires that have to be "prevented."

That goes beyond doing something stupid and enters into promoting terrorism in my book because she's spreading fear, which is exactly what a terrorist does.

Fear mongering is required to have the people support funding stupid ideas.

Therefore, media = terrorist. I'd love to see them face that double standard.

[Feba]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

First, there's really nothing new in that.

I push you to read the bottom line a few times.

Second, this is exactly my point. She is being punished for her thoughts- what she has said, what she has read, who she talks to, and what she thinks; not because she is actually a threat or has hurt anyone.
------------------------------------------
Also Jarre, I'm not sure why you edited it, but all that bold is nearly unreadable.

[Jarre]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Feba Under the Uk terrosim act it is illegal to own any material from terroism organisations whether on paper or on your computer.

Discovered on the her computer were The Mujaheddin Poisoner's Handbook, Encyclopaedia Jihad, How To Win In Hand To Hand Combat, How To Make Bombs and Sniper Manual.

First offense.

The court heard Malik joined an extremist organisation called Jihad Way, set up explicitly to disseminate terrorist propaganda and support for al Qaida.

2nd offense being associated or joining a terrosim extreemist organisation whether active or not.

"She also tried to donate money to a terrorist group.

3rd offense its illegal to donate or attempt to donate to any terrosit organisation.

Also found were publications from an Islamic extremist group called " Followers of Ahl us-Sunnah Wal-Jammaa'ah" (ASWJ) linked to another group, The Saved Sect, and extremist cleric Sheikh Omar Bakri

4th offense for having illegal published content.

[Feba]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Under the Uk terrosim act it is illegal

Do you really think I give two shits what laws are used to justify it? It's policing thoughtcrime. End of story.

Reading things is not a crime.

Having thoughts is not a crime.

Joining and supporting groups that share your thoughts is not a crime.

Writing or speaking your thoughts is not a crime.


Even by your own admission this is an infringement of free speech. The fact that it's illegal does not change the fact that it is indeed the case.

[Taskmage]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

The law doesn't dictate the line between right and wrong. If those things are illegal and your government claims to support the natural rights of freedom of religion, expression and of the presses as our government does, then the law is in contradiction of those ideals.

[DakAttack]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

. . . Well, apparently Dak can. It's a shame he's the one comparing people to fires that have to be "prevented."

PLEASE, tell me you're not as stupid as that quote makes you look. It's not just about fire, it's any situation that could go horribly wrong. Leaving your baby in your car on a summer day, not locking your doors, letting your news papers pile up, forgetting to let the dog out, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

CLICK IT



In the past when I've given thanks it would post one and then tell me I'm not allowed to post another. Now it just posts two. Not my fault.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

I'm sorry to say but they let her off pretty easily. I don't know what you guys feel when it comes to free speech and expression, but I think this constitutes just a little more than simple expression. Say for example an individual was collecting photos of a world leader, advocated their slaying, and was found to possess a snipers handbook per say, how do you react? This is more than simple thought and expression. It would be only natural to investigate this woman and given her activities jail her. They understood the circumstance of the situation and she got off light.

[Feba]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Yes Dak, you can keep making that point, but you cannot compare manipulating inanimate objects to manipulating human life. They are not the same thing. Again, your point only stands if a person has the same intelligence as said space heater, and the only person you're making a case for with that is yourself.
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per say, how do you react?

If there is no serious and provable offense, drop it. Why is it a concern? Said leader should be well protected. The person should not be able to get their hands on a weapon. The case you gave is even weaker than this, and locking up the person for it would be even worse.

[DakAttack]

Re: Sorry Britain. No free speach for you.

Yes Dak, you can keep making that point, but you cannot compare manipulating inanimate objects to manipulating human life. They are not the same thing. Again, your point only stands if a person has the same intelligence as said space heater, and the only person you're making a case for with that is yourself.

The Feba-man Argument.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)