Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

[Omni]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

In many cases, yea I think American parents are probably up there as the most lax when it comes to parenting. The reason being that the US is such a dynamic place that traditions and customs have tended to have faded away here. I was born and raised here, however, my parents are Taiwanese and have been here for over 30 years. They are no where close to being like some old school Taiwanese parents I know but they still laid down the law when I was younger. In other countries, the freedoms we enjoy so much here are less heard of and accepted. I guess it's hard to imagine if you have never lived outside the US or north america.

Theres more chances for a lack of discipline here in the states. Like someone said before, since now that you have kids divorcing their parents and kids calling social services to have their parents in legal trouble, sometimes you're just doing yourself in with these laws. Yes, you shouldnt mistreat your kid but at the same time, nothing works better than a good ass whopping. Theres a fine line between disciplining your child and abusing them and the rules have become so lax here that any sort of punishment has some nosey person raising their finger crying child abuse.

I think parenting has gotten worse because of the weaking of the family structure among many other things. I know everyone has their issues, and this is in no way a knock at all the many hard working single parents. I admire strong people that try to keep it together despite their struggles however I detest lazy people who say having a kid is their source of all their troubles. I know of people in hard situations but they never complain about not being able to keep the head on their kid straight as possible.

[Nazo]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

In other countries, the freedoms we enjoy so much here are less heard of and accepted. I guess it's hard to imagine if you have never lived outside the US or north america.

Well, I'm not American, I'm British but that's neither here nor there. I have spent 3 years working in the Japanese school system though, and let me tell you, Japanese parents are in no way more disciplined than in the west. It's pretty much accepted that schools are responsible for teaching kids discipline and responsibility. If a kid gets into trouble with the law then it's their homeroom teacher that gets the blame for it. Nonetheless, Japan does not have this problem with its kids.

[neokaril]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

, nothing works better than a good ass whopping.

Not to sound confrontational Omni, but do you have any kids?

From experience I can tell you that an "ass whooping" is NOT the answer. I have never once laid a hand on my child, I have never had to, I instruct and I teach, I nurture and I develop, I make great "sacrifices" which aren’t sacrifices at all to me, because nothing is more important to me than my child’s development, I do this as a single father and an active duty military member.

Blaming upbringing is unacceptable, as is blaming video games, or diet, or movies, or any other single thing. Simply put, the largest problem we have today is lack of mea culpa. In general we have grown accustom to finding someone or something else to blame for our actions, people just don't want to assume responsibility for their own actions. Regardless of outside influences, past the age of reason, when we understand right from wrong, it is the individual’s decision to do one or the other. I grew up being severely beaten, broken bones, loss of bodily functions etc. Did that turn me in to a child abuser? An oppressive tyrant? No, why? Because I know it is wrong, I remember how it felt and would never want that pain to be felt by someone I loved. I don't steal because I know how hard I must work for things and how it makes me feel to have things taken from me.

What we need isn't more sensitivity, but a realization throughout that I am responsible for my actions. I am the master of my fate and the captain of my ship. I make good decisions and bad decisions and the onus is on me to stand up and be judged for both, to correct as I can and to continue to grow and develop as a human. Only through this individual growth can we see a growth in humanity in its entirety.

Just my two cents..

[Jarre]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

OK so let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right and parenting is largely to blame. Are you saying parenting is getting worse? If so why?

Yes.

A few reasons....

Values...

How many of you sit with your parents (or children) and eat breakfast, lunch (on weekends) and dinner around a table with no TV on etc and talk to each other?

Then ask how many sit inf ront of the TV with food on a tray staring at a box and only open their mouths to shovel food in?

How many of you play board games or anythign like that that interacts with their parents? How many people are encouraged to "Be a family"?

The common answer is less and less parents are spending quality time with their kids, 1 meal a daya round the table improves communication and bonding. The fact is our society these days is lazy. We eat in front fo the Tv, we play games on our own alot of the time, kids don't go out much these days due to wanting to watch tv/play games or because its too dangerous to be outside (if you live in a bad area) Kids these days (and yeah I sound like an old fart) spend more time in solitary than they used to, the Tv and computer has helped that (I ain;'t no J thompson, but soemtimes you just need to get out and smell the fresh air and be with your mates face to face, not via text or chat)

I ahve seen what solitary does to you. i have a friend whos been housebound due to a sever injury, he has lived on his own for 11 years now only seeing me 4 times a week when I visit and his now very old mother once a week. His attitude to nurses that visit and others is diabolical, and he can't see anythign wrong. why you ask? simple, he hasn;t had the constant interection of soemone to say, hey thats not right, he jsut does what he wants, he may be 37 but its still the same. If a parent isn;t there for a kid to teach them right from wrong the kid doesn;t learn and thinks its ok to do what really in reality is wrong.

In todays society parents are struggling to look after the families, they work long shifts and they come home so tired they don;t feel like interacting with people. There is a severe drunk and drug culture on this planet now, a majior increase in the Uk, where it is known some parents are violent with their kids. The kid sees this all teh time and because there parents are violent they don;t know its wrong and therefore follow in the footsteps.

Yeah this elcture is long but I think I've covered a small majority of the points.

A kid looks up to his parents, if the parents are bad, so will teh kid become, its been proven so many times in society today.

[Omni]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

nazo, didnt mean to sound like that was directed to you. which it wasnt. theres always problem kids, i mean theyre kids. however, on the whole kids elsewhere have less sa

neo: no i dont have kids. however, when i say ass whopping its not the abusive kind. its the kind my mom gave me when i got into trouble. in addition to her teaching and setting a great example. however, i can understand why you wouldnt want to hit your kids due to your childhood.

now about knowing right from wrong. how do we know whats right from wrong when some people have been neglected and not nurtured and guided from the beginning with someone setting a good example? this is what i mean. NOT everyone knows right from wrong. There are people who are old enough that they -should- understand right from wrong but dont, nor do they care to. A lot of what I have noticed is that many times, these people have bad and broken childhoods. Which a lot of times, do mess with someones internal wiring so to speak. its broken on such an basic level that its hard to correct once people are older.

How do we know how to own up to our actions and be the master of our fate when all of our examples that we naturally look to are not there, wrong and even hurtful? I totally agree, we should own up to what we do. Some people dont have that basic component configured correctly within them though. That's my point. That's where poor parenting fails us. Who else is supposed to tell a child that when you do something bad, you arent supposed to lie, run away or ignore what you did and its consequences? That's something that is not likely to be figured out on ones own and when you grow up not knowing that it becomes a larger issue as an adult.

This isnt to say this is how it is 100% of the time because that would be completely naive of me because you yourself said u had a tough childhood but you came out ok. Which fortunately is a good thing for you and your children. Some people dont come out of it as lucky.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

It's sad but people just dont care. It's the whole, well it's not me so who gives a crap attitude.

You just summed up the reason for the vast majority of the world's problems and their continual perpetuation. kudos.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

Even then you could assert the claim that abusive behavior or very strern physical punishment is not truely detrimental to the child given the specific circumstances. Last I checked things such as that were common place up until the 60's, and if you look at the generations before that, they turned out extremelly well, the "greatest generation" for example. Aslong as the beating isn't life threatening or completely random, generally the ramifications can be argued away by the sheer number of indifferent cases in the generations before such practices were deminished.
(For future references, I am against "abuse" personally and stern physical punishment, but view that in the long run such practices might have an impact on society not truely in the manner that is depicted currently (such thought could also be applied to murder and other crimes, functionality might just be something we have yet to understand). I'm a fresh faced nihilist with so much to learn and lose!)

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

Cordelia vs willow (Buffy reference) i.e. girl who has it all vs girl who is normal and just has the bare necesities.

Willow without a doubt would be my choice. Oh the way I'd slay her~

[Jarre]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

I'd just like willow to be in the "bare necesities"

Anyhows...

The society today is really F&**&d up, kids are protected so much that they are taking advantage of this and the traditional forms of punishment, ruler, cane, belt hand etc. would lend the parents in chataux Deef (thats prison for those that don't understand Scottish slang) same with teachers, the fact now the only disaplinery measure now is to be shouted at (and even now that has to be done in a way not to make an example of the person or not in a way that would make them feel really bad, as it can now be classed as bullying. what a world we live in now!!)

All we have now for the young kids is the naughty step. You can;t even send them to the rooms now as parents give kids games consoles, TV's so they watch tv or play them and if there taken away they throw a big tantrum until they get them back when the aprents can't control their kids.

I walk abck from teh pub with my mates at midnight when they close and I still see 8 year olds walking in groups around town with school the following day, WTF are they doing out at this time?

Violence in the playground because an 8 year old re-inacts a scene from fight club or a violent film, because there aprents let them watch an 18 certificate film at 8!!! There age is still too young to really work out thats not right. Here in the Uk the problem is also amplified due to the amount of teenage mothers, with girls as young as 14 having kids and then expected to look after them, the mothers are too young to be able to teach tehir kids right from worng as they are only young themselves. in most cases the boyfriend has F*&&^d off not wanting to take any responsibility or face a possible jail term for underage sex.

I'm sorry but its not up to the schools to teach everyone right from wrong it needs to be a one to one thing and tought from day one at home. How a kid grows up IS down to how the parent bring them up FULL STOP.

No matter what they see on TV, see in a game, what happens at school the parents need to interact with the kids and tell them what is right and wrong. Parents also need to teach their kids respect and how to eat properly as we are starting to turn into a planet of fat basturds.

Kids now want their freedom, want space to do what ever they want, well you need to earn that and the only way is to attempt to learn right from wrong and not be a spoiled brat like 50% of the kids these days seem to be.

There endef the old fart lecture.

[neokaril]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

Understand that lessons are learned from every experience, while parents typically have the largest opportunity for exposure, (these days that's debatable) to assume that a lesson not taught at home wont be taught is giving humans less credit than they deserve. Human beings are creatures of reason and thought, you beat an animal to return a Pavlovian response, the animal doesn't change behavior because it knows the behavior to be wrong, the animal modifies behavior to avoid the punishment. We aren't animals; our ability to reason is what sets us apart. If we are limited to what our parents teach us, then how do we ever progress? How did we ever have a first of anything? The first person to cook meat certainly wasn't taught how, he "experimented" and found it to be good. He found it to be better for him and those around him and therefore it continued.

Values and morality aren't established by your parents, they are established by the world around you, what is socially acceptable varies from society to society and so then does the moral compass. If there is anything that needs to be fixed it is that moral compass. Part of growing up is seeing understanding and making judgments for yourself as to which social norms "work" for you and the biggest downturn in individual moral compasses has occurred in parallel with a lack of taking responsibility for our own actions. I find it frustrating that everyone has someone or something else to blame for what they do. The greatest lesson children can be taught is culpability be responsible for what you do or don't do and learn from it. We as a people need to stop making excuses or pushing blame, we need to educate all around us and grow. It takes a village to raise a child; it takes a beating to dissuade an animal.

[neokaril]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

So Jarre, when you see 8 year olds walking around at unreasonable hours what do you do about it? Do you go up and tell them they shouldn't be there, do you call someone to come and pick them up, or do you shake your head and comment about poor parenting? This isn't meant to sound like an attack, I'm just using it as an example, we want these kids to be be better people, to grow up in to productive memebers of society, to make a real positive impact, yet rather than helping them to do so, we simply complain about it being someone elses fault, shame on them for not raising their children.... it's not my responsibility. Well yes it is, it is your responsibility to correct and affect as you can. It is all of our responsibility to affect change, to affect growth as we can.

[Armando]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

This isn't meant to sound like an attack, I'm just using it as an example, we want these kids to be be better people, to grow up in to productive memebers of society, to make a real positive impact, yet rather than helping them to do so, we simply complain about it being someone elses fault, shame on them for not raising their children.... it's not my responsibility.

And you think they'll listen to a total stranger, when many hardly take their parents seriously as it is?

[neokaril]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

Often times kids actually listen better to a complete stranger than they do to their parents, but that is neither here nor there, doing or attempting to do something rather than simply identifying a problem as someone else's is at least a step in the right direction. If you feel threatened or endangered, call a truancy officer, file a report with the police, if they don't respond keep doing so until they do, if that doesn't work get involved in local civics, exert energies to improve the situation.
My point is that if left unchecked and these children continue on there way they won't ultimately be there parents problem, but our problem. Placing the blame for improper rearing on the parents doesn't fix the problem, blaming never fixes the problem. Let's work on fixing rather than blaming.
If the root of the problem is rearing lets not just assume that that rearing is the responsibility of only the parent, or only the school system. Lets look at the reality of it, which is that life development is a culmination of our responses and reflexes to all things and lets work towards being a positive enforcement of the fundamental values we want to see.

[Jarre]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

So Jarre, when you see 8 year olds walking around at unreasonable hours what do you do about it? Do you go up and tell them they shouldn't be there, do you call someone to come and pick them up, or do you shake your head and comment about poor parenting?

If you ask them what theya re doing out there, you'll jsut get a mouthfull of abuse with constant fing and blinding, and me mam knows and doesn;t care, i can do what the F I like. also you an;t do anything about it as the kids have the power and can acuse you of anything, and it tends to go their way. The most we can do is point it out to a local Bobby and let them deal with it.

[Omni]

Re: Va. Tech Shooting: Be nice!

its not about blaming. its pointing out that a major issue with kids today IS parenting, or the lack there of. the only way to fix that is to have better parents. period. blame or not, just be a better parent and the chances that your kid will turn out a productive/non-killing member of society is a lot greater. I think we can all agree on that.

strangers can only do so much. i can tell kids to go home and call the police to tell them to see what are a buncha 8 yr olds doing out causing trouble. however, totally saying its not the parents fault that your kid is out and not in school or wandering around at night is complete b.s.

you have control over your children when they are growing up. if you cant establish that control and authority nor think its right, i think thats one giant step in the wrong direction. its good to give your children the ability to think for themselves but at the same time, they have to know their limits and consequences.

you can teach your kids the best you can and raise them as best as you could and in the end, when they become adults they will ultimately do what they want BUT knowing that... knowing that one day your kids will have a complete mind of their own is NOT a reason to give up on trying to discipline and teach them.