swedish copyright laws (spawned from SE spying thread)

[DakAttack]

People get so pissy about having their 'personal data' looked at. It barely qualifies as personal. If you have nothing to worry about, then stop worrying. If you do, then do something about it.

Let's go SE, help yourself to my internet history. You can take a look at my favorites too if you'd like, I think they're quite nice.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

People get so pissy about having their 'personal data' looked at. It barely qualifies as personal. If you have nothing to worry about, then stop worrying. If you do, then do something about it.

Let's go SE, help yourself to my internet history. You can take a look at my favorites too if you'd like, I think they're quite nice.

Sorry but this is the issue at hand, I don't allow anyone to look at anything I do if they don't have the rights do so (even if it is for good intentions). It is not a matter that I don't have a reason to hide anything, for me it is a matter of non-one having the right to do so in the first place.

And yes I do report everything like this to my local police (and so does most Swedes), since over here invasion of privacy in any shape or form is seen as one of the worst crimes that exist.

I don't know if it is cultural diffrence or not, but here where I live you just don't accept anything as OK unless someone actually has the explicit rights to do so.

And a good quote we have over here (think you have it in english as well but I'll just roughly translate it as well).

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Simple, if you have no reason to be where you are GET OUT or get a legal way to perform your action in question.

[DakAttack]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Sorry but this is the issue at hand, I don't allow anyone to look at anything I do if they don't have the rights do so (even if it is for good intentions). It is not a matter that I don't have a reason to hide anything, for me it is a matter of non-one having the right to do so in the first place.

And yes I do report everything like this to my local police (and so does most Swedes), since over here invasion of privacy in any shape or form is seen as one of the worst crimes that exist.

I don't know if it is cultural diffrence or not, but here where I live you just don't accept anything as OK unless someone actually has the explicit rights to do so.

And a good quote we have over here (think you have it in english as well but I'll just roughly translate it as well).

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Simple, if you have no reason to be where you are GET OUT or get a legal way to perform your action in question.

I know a few Swedes myself, and they claim Sweden runs a large amount of the world's illegal sharing networks, torrents, and torrent trackers. Why do you guys just accept that as OK when so many other people don't? One of my friends actually runs an/or monitors a sharing network for his college campus in Umea.

It's not a cultural difference, it's just people freaking out over the small things in life. If anything it's a personal difference. SE has offered me limitless entertainment over the years, and I'd offer them a key to my car if 'them' are one single trustworthy entity. (I only have one spare key) What, other than what they've mentioned, would they do with the information they collect? They already have your credit card number, name, address, and phone number. They're not going to say, "You regularly visit 4chan, and you're a bain to all those you associate with! We will no longer allow you to play our game and we're going to send your internet history straight to the one person you care most about! For shame!"

I'll become concerned if it's some random creep.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

DNAS scans your system each and every time you log in, looking for data it is told to look for and ingoring data that isn't. Any consent to DNAS in the EULA would be an consent to this as well.

SE has every right to know if you run something like windower or hacks for the game. They have every right to block it. 360 and PS2 users do not pose a threat to the network and game balance like PC users can.

So far, most of what the program does seems to be targeting windower, which is a violation of your POL user agreement. Do you use windower? Would you argue that, since SE is clearly against the use of windower at this time, SE has no right to dismantle windower?

I find it interesting you make no mention of windower, but other people complaining on other sites have mentioned it and focus on that part of what the program does. I've heard nothing of it doing other things until I saw your post.

The issue at hand, the DNAS scan is allowed since it is explicitly stated what it does. The new process scan which POL performs is not disclosed and there is no option of opting out of it which is the issue for me. And no the DNAS scan doesn't extend to the process scan, since in case of ANY scan you must explicitly define what you are doing and wht you are scanning for in order to be legally allowed to perform it to start with (same principle in both Sweden and US for this). (also see Appendix at end of this post).

And SEI doesn't have complete rights to perform such a scan AT ALL, unless disclosed and give the user the option of opting out. This is not a windower issue for me it is the issue of POL doing something they do not inform me of and not giving me a legal choice of opting out of. And it doesn't matter WHY the scan is performed for me, I just don't want the few legal rights I still have to be violated in shape or form.

And if SEI wants to know if a user happens to run windower or other third-party application I have no qualms about that, as long as it is done in a manner that actually is legal with a choice of opting out of the agreement needed to perform the scan if you so choose. (which isn't included at all, and in addition the scan itself initiates without the user even having the choice of opting ut of it) I am all for SEI protecting their applications and software, as long as they do it in a legal manner, which is something they don't do as of now.

POL doesn't care if windower is running or not on your system, it scans you anyhow (and it scans all running processes and applications) when starting POL. This is not included in the User Agreement or ToS, not does it give us an option when we start the application of POL to actually terminate the scan (and the application itself) if we don't approve of it (which you have to legally give the end-user the option of doing).

This is not about windower for me, it is about SEI doing something that currently are NOT allowed to do.

BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE
SECTION 22575-22579

22575. (a) An operator of a commercial Web site or online service
that collects personally identifiable information through the
Internet about individual consumers residing in California who use
or visit its commercial Web site or online service shall
conspicuously post its privacy policy on its Web site, or in the case
of an operator of an online service, make that policy available in
accordance with paragraph (5) of subdivision (b) of Section 22577.
An operator shall be in violation of this subdivision only if the
operator fails to post its policy within 30 days after being
notified of noncompliance.
(b) The privacy policy required by subdivision (a) shall do all of
the following:
(1) Identify the categories of personally identifiable information
that the operator collects through the Web site or online service
about individual consumers who use or visit its commercial Web site
or online service and the categories of third-party persons or
entities with whom the operator may share that personally
identifiable information.
(2) If the operator maintains a process for an individual consumer
who uses or visits its commercial Web site or online service to
review and request changes to any of his or her personally
identifiable information that is collected through the Web site or
online service, provide a description of that process.
(3) Describe the process by which the operator notifies consumers
who use or visit its commercial Web site or online service of
material changes to the operator's privacy policy for that Web site
or online service.
(4) Identify its effective date.



22576. An operator of a commercial Web site or online service that
collects personally identifiable information through the Web site or
online service from individual consumers who use or visit the
commercial Web site or online service and who reside in California
shall be in violation of this section if the operator fails to comply
with the provisions of Section 22575 or with the provisions of its
posted privacy policy in either of the following ways:
(a) Knowingly and willfully.
(b) Negligently and materially.



22577. For the purposes of this chapter, the following definitions
apply:
(a) The term "personally identifiable information" means
individually identifiable information about an individual consumer
collected online by the operator from that individual and maintained
by the operator in an accessible form, including any of the
following:
(1) A first and last name.
(2) A home or other physical address, including street name and
name of a city or town.
(3) An e-mail address.
(4) A telephone number.
(5) A social security number.
(6) Any other identifier that permits the physical or online
contacting of a specific individual.
(7) Information concerning a user that the Web site or online
service collects online from the user and maintains in personally
identifiable form in combination with an identifier described in this
subdivision.
(b) The term "conspicuously post" with respect to a privacy policy
shall include posting the privacy policy through any of the
following:
(1) A Web page on which the actual privacy policy is posted if the
Web page is the homepage or first significant page after entering
the Web site.
(2) An icon that hyperlinks to a Web page on which the actual
privacy policy is posted, if the icon is located on the homepage or
the first significant page after entering the Web site, and if the
icon contains the word "privacy." The icon shall also use a color
that contrasts with the background color of the Web page or is
otherwise distinguishable.
(3) A text link that hyperlinks to a Web page on which the actual
privacy policy is posted, if the text link is located on the homepage
or first significant page after entering the Web site, and if the
text link does one of the following:
(A) Includes the word "privacy."
(B) Is written in capital letters equal to or greater in size than
the surrounding text.
(C) Is written in larger type than the surrounding text, or in
contrasting type, font, or color to the surrounding text of the same
size, or set off from the surrounding text of the same size by
symbols or other marks that call attention to the language.
(4) Any other functional hyperlink that is so displayed that a
reasonable person would notice it.
(5) In the case of an online service, any other reasonably
accessible means of making the privacy policy available for consumers
of the online service.
(c) The term "operator" means any person or entity that owns a
Web site located on the Internet or an online service that collects
and maintains personally identifiable information from a consumer
residing in California who uses or visits the Web site or online
service if the Web site or online service is operated for commercial
purposes. It does not include any third party that operates, hosts,
or manages, but does not own, a Web site or online service on the
owner's behalf or by processing information on behalf of the owner.
(d) The term "consumer" means any individual who seeks or
acquires, by purchase or lease, any goods, services, money, or credit
for personal, family, or household purposes.



22578. It is the intent of the Legislature that this chapter is a
matter of statewide concern. This chapter supersedes and preempts
all rules, regulations, codes, ordinances, and other laws adopted by
a city, county, city and county, municipality, or local agency
regarding the posting of a privacy policy on an Internet Web site.




22579. This chapter shall become operative on July 1, 2004.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

News Flash: Sweden is not the whole world, nor is the internet exclusive to it. Most laws have no direct influence on the internet or what happens on it. Someone can make a law against saying "fuck" on the internet and we will just say it more, they can't arrest everyone.

I don't ask for for all these spyware programs to load in on my computer, they help themselves and I have to accept that its going to happen each time I log in, there isn't even a violation of a EULA or contract there, they just burrow into my system.. Only thing I can do is weed them out.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

I know a few Swedes myself, and they claim Sweden runs a large amount of the world's illegal sharing networks, torrents, and torrent trackers. Why do you guys just accept that as OK when so many other people don't? One of my friends actually runs an/or monitors a sharing network for his college campus in Umea.

It's not a cultural difference, it's just people freaking out over the small things in life. If anything it's a personal difference. SE has offered me limitless entertainment over the years, and I'd offer them a key to my car if 'them' are one single trustworthy entity. (I only have one spare key) What, other than what they've mentioned, would they do with the information they collect? They already have your credit card number, name, address, and phone number. They're not going to say, "You regularly visit 4chan, and you're a bain to all those you associate with! We will no longer allow you to play our game and we're going to send your internet history straight to the one person you care most about! For shame!"

I'll become concerned if it's some random creep.

Torrent trackers and the like is not illegal in Sweden actually due to how copyright law works here (DCMA doesn't apply in Sweden). And the only people that have actually been convicted of copyright crimes in Sweden are people that have shared copyrighted works directly in open networks.

It is not a crime to run a torrent tracker itself in Sweden, since the torrent files in themselves are not illegal in Sweden. This since they don't include copyrighted material, just the information about where to find it which isn't illegal in Sweden.

And the sharing of music, films and the like is not seen as a crime by the general public here to be honest. Most see it as free access of culture, and the issue about the Piratebay were a personal integrety issue which made basically all Sweden worked up.

This since the tracker were shut down illegally by the swedish police after some bullying from lobbyist in US by breaking privacy laws. What happened there, well the state and police got sued. The site were up after three days again and the state cannot touch it at all and the MPIAA and RIAA just complain more and more but there is nothing you do about it in Sweden since what they do aren't illegal.

Sweden even has a Pirate Party which want to break copyright laws in Sweden, it is not in goverment but is the largest party outside the goverment. So yeah, us Swedes have a little diffren view on coyright and culture itself in this respect.

We just don't see what is wrong about it, and we all share material illegally. Copyright crimes in addition are seen as very minor crimes here, wont give you much more then the equalent of a speeding ticket in terms of punishment.

[DakAttack]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Well, I hate Sweden just a little bit more now. You can't expect any respect if you're not offering any yourself.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Well, I hate Sweden just a little bit more now. You can't expect any respect if you're not offering any yourself.

To explain something for you, it is not illegal to download or own copyrighted material in Sweden it is just illegal to spread it. So the warez scene is NOT illegal in itself here.

What is illegal is to spread copyrighted material directly, so you're essentially asking me why I am not against the downloading of copyrighted materials. Well the action of downloading and owning copyrighted works against the copyrighters holders will isn't illegal here so it is not an issue.

I cannot exactly condemn something that isn't illegal and I don't see a moral issue with in the first place.

[DakAttack]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

I see, so all the morally corrupt youth of Sweden depend on the country's laws to direct their ethical development?

You sound like a hipocrite.

[Murphie]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

So, Sweden: Ok with stealing, not ok with looking at your internet cookies.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

So, Sweden: Ok with stealing, not ok with looking at your internet cookies.

Actually internet cookies and session data is illegal in Sweden, so swedish websites that reside within Sweden aren't allowed to use them without explicitly informing the end-user about it and also giving the user an option to not using them.

Don't know if you meant to make a joke or not, but yeah cookies are partly illegal in Sweden since they are classified as invasion of privacy here if not fully disclosed exactly which data you collect and give the user an option to disable them if they do not want to use them.

And no I am against stealing, I have no qualms about free access to culture however and nor does the laws that governs a Swede. Since obtaining culture isn't physical ownership while stealing something physical you do remove the object from someone and they actually loose that object thrugh theft.

Theft does puts you in prison here, but theft also requires you to actually physically steal something which you doesn't do if you copy something digitally.

[Murphie]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Theft extends beyond the physical realm though. At least it does in the rest of the world.

Basically you're saying you're cool with stealing someone else's intellectual property, but you'll be damned if anyone will so much as look at yours without your express permission.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Theft extends beyond the physical realm though. At least it does in the rest of the world.

Not even US laws categorize copyright crimes as theft though which is the topic at hand. Though yes we have some exceptionts to the rule about theft, but those just cover software since software isn't defined as culture.

And I am against copying of software so and on that stance I am adamant since I considered using software you don't physically own theft. It is when it comes to content defined as culture myself and other swedes do find the issues a little diffrent then you in this case.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Swedish laws mean jack squat, the internet counts as a seperate entity and isn't bound international laws like those of Sweden, so it's a moot point. You guys can make all the internet laws you want, but unless you close off the whole world and have your own internal internet going on that is self sufficient without outside data it doesn't MATTER what type of laws you have setup.

On the topic, while I don't really care about the scanning itself(I was still on WoW when Warden came out), we do need to be made aware of it. Certain people can and will throw hissy fits over stuff like this, so they need to be made aware that their processes will be looked at and possible data collected.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: swedish copyright laws (spawned from SE spying thread)

I just don't see what's so grave about them doing such a scan. It just checks your applications and processes right? Is that really in all honesty something vital to you as an individual? I can understand the right to privacy and the want for it, but this all doesn't seem like a real intrusion into it. Also, you're aware of the scans now, whether they give you a disclaimer or not, so shape what's there to give them the image you want them to see. Of course if this is really a problem, you can protest to SE through e-mails and stop logging in till it gets changed.

If they gave you a disclaimer, would it really make you feel better? You know the scan is there. So if they did have the choice, and you could choose yes or no.. Well no, you wouldn't play the game most likely since you're not cooperating and if you chose yes, then it would do the scan that it does anyways. So the real debate is about just if they tell you about it? Well, you know they do it~