Ding dong the Witch is dead!

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Draco, if you want to debate that further with Maju, please take it to PM's. Let's keep the thread on topic and civil.

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Draco, if you want to debate that further with Maju, please take it to PM's. Let's keep the thread on topic and civil.

Certanily...

[Sabaron]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

These are thoughts and reflections not necessarily facts; do not interpret them as such:

I think the most important thing to remember is that when a political movement starts, it has a goal. I believe the original idea behind "Terrorism" was the liberation of Palestine from Israel. America and her allies took land from others and gave it to the Jews so they could found their own facist little nation (just like the Germans) without letting other races in--effectively "purging" their land of the "infidels" (just like the Muslims). All sides believe that they are righteous in a Holy War. Since America chose to side with the Jews (who we saved from German oppression--a good thing, I guess), we became an enemy to Islam because we supported the forcible and methodical destruction of one of their nations at the hands of brutal enemies. This is bad.

Since no one was paying any attention to the plight of the Palestinians, and the Palestinians had no "conventional" means of combatting the Israelis (they were being slaughtered, just as they are today), they had to resort to an unorthodox methodology to get their point across.

Other terror syndicates emulated these originals for their own goals and motives. For decades, however, we have been assassinating their leaders. Cutting the head off of a religious-political movement is not like cutting the head off of a snake. It is more like cutting the head off of a fluke--it just grows back, but it doesn't remember what the old head remembers. Through each generation of leadership, the goals become more distorted from the original until they are simply self-serving (if the new leader is intelligent and wicked) or maniacal (if the new leader is a product of mental conditioning). Each time you roll the dice, the organization changes--it is rarely destroyed, and you get the choice of a fanatical death cult with no goal except to destroy or a political regime with an army of soldiers whose religion IS the regime (unquestioning loyalty).

Basically, this is just a huge storm that was created by the misguided actions of people who were around before I was even born and neither side will be sated except by blood. Were I able, I would simply extricate myself from any involvement with either side and sit back and sip lemonade while they exterminate themselves. Problem solved.

The only direct involvment I should ever seek to have in any conflict would be in defense of my family (in a physical sense--I'll explain), my life, or my property.

A lot of times, people call something (especially, it seems, American politicians) Defense when in fact they are referring to Offense. For instance, "Defending Freedom" means "Killing Iraqis" and "Making wonderful privacy-invading, civil-rights-violating security laws" to "Protect" me from enemies who don't even know me or who couldn't give a flying F what I'm doing as long as I'm not doing it where they live. Hooray; now I get to pay money to kill people who I don't hate, pay money so that some jack-ass can listen to my phone conversations, filter my emails and forum posts, and pay money to fix all the crap we break in the process. Double Hooray. Plus since I'm American, I'm now branded as some kind of enemy or blind sheep and/or instantly disliked by people of foreign nations simply because when I vote, I no longer vote for President because no one who fits the qualifications I would put forth for such a position of power has been placed on the ballot in any election that has occured since I have been voting age. (I do vote by the way, for local officials who I can actually talk to and have some concept of what it is that they plan to do).

National Politics in America is all about slicing Zealots up. For example: Abortion is a hot topic. Many people hate it, and many people will fight to defend their right to have it. Therefore, take a poll and see how many people would vote for you if you side "for/against" the issue. Bang! A whole bunch of voters who will only vote for you. Gay Marriage is the "Hot Button" of this year's election. Take a side: Gay-sympathizer? Marriage-defender? He who takes option #1 gets all the gays! He who takes option #2 gets all the Religious folk and their ilk. It's as simple as sectioning a pie. He who picks the biggest pieces for himself, wins. The most wonderful thing is that you don't even have to DO anything, you just have to pretend to care.

That's enough ranting for now...I could go on.

[Feba]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

If the US hadn't shown Japan they were serious, Japan might not have surrendered.

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

If the US hadn't shown Japan they were serious, Japan might not have surrendered.

It is quite well-known Japan was going to surrender regardless of whether or not we had dropped those bombs. What is not well-known is it could've been a tactical surrender instead.

[Sabaron]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Yes, but the first rule of Techological War is that if you spend a whole bunch of money on some powerful weapon, and you get the chance to test it--WTH? Go right ahead and blow up hordes of people! Unexploded ordnance is a waste of money (b/c we'll have something new by the time a new war rolls around); "delivered" ordnance is Progressive!

Forgot to add Rule #2:

Mercy is for the weak.


[Read: Add 40% Cynicism and 60% Sarcasm]

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

These are thoughts and reflections not necessarily facts; do not interpret them as such:

I think the most important thing to remember is that when a political movement starts, it has a goal. I believe the original idea behind "Terrorism" was the liberation of Palestine from Israel. America and her allies took land from others and gave it to the Jews so they could found their own facist little nation (just like the Germans) without letting other races in--effectively "purging" their land of the "infidels" (just like the Muslims). All sides believe that they are righteous in a Holy War. Since America chose to side with the Jews (who we saved from German oppression--a good thing, I guess), we became an enemy to Islam because we supported the forcible and methodical destruction of one of their nations at the hands of brutal enemies. This is bad.

Since no one was paying any attention to the plight of the Palestinians, and the Palestinians had no "conventional" means of combatting the Israelis (they were being slaughtered, just as they are today), they had to resort to an unorthodox methodology to get their point across.

Other terror syndicates emulated these originals for their own goals and motives. For decades, however, we have been assassinating their leaders. Cutting the head off of a religious-political movement is not like cutting the head off of a snake. It is more like cutting the head off of a fluke--it just grows back, but it doesn't remember what the old head remembers. Through each generation of leadership, the goals become more distorted from the original until they are simply self-serving (if the new leader is intelligent and wicked) or maniacal (if the new leader is a product of mental conditioning). Each time you roll the dice, the organization changes--it is rarely destroyed, and you get the choice of a fanatical death cult with no goal except to destroy or a political regime with an army of soldiers whose religion IS the regime (unquestioning loyalty).

Basically, this is just a huge storm that was created by the misguided actions of people who were around before I was even born and neither side will be sated except by blood. Were I able, I would simply extricate myself from any involvement with either side and sit back and sip lemonade while they exterminate themselves. Problem solved.

The only direct involvment I should ever seek to have in any conflict would be in defense of my family (in a physical sense--I'll explain), my life, or my property.

A lot of times, people call something (especially, it seems, American politicians) Defense when in fact they are referring to Offense. For instance, "Defending Freedom" means "Killing Iraqis" and "Making wonderful privacy-invading, civil-rights-violating security laws" to "Protect" me from enemies who don't even know me or who couldn't give a flying F what I'm doing as long as I'm not doing it where they live. Hooray; now I get to pay money to kill people who I don't hate, pay money so that some jack-ass can listen to my phone conversations, filter my emails and forum posts, and pay money to fix all the crap we break in the process. Double Hooray. Plus since I'm American, I'm now branded as some kind of enemy or blind sheep and/or instantly disliked by people of foreign nations simply because when I vote, I no longer vote for President because no one who fits the qualifications I would put forth for such a position of power has been placed on the ballot in any election that has occured since I have been voting age. (I do vote by the way, for local officials who I can actually talk to and have some concept of what it is that they plan to do).

National Politics in America is all about slicing Zealots up. For example: Abortion is a hot topic. Many people hate it, and many people will fight to defend their right to have it. Therefore, take a poll and see how many people would vote for you if you side "for/against" the issue. Bang! A whole bunch of voters who will only vote for you. Gay Marriage is the "Hot Button" of this year's election. Take a side: Gay-sympathizer? Marriage-defender? He who takes option #1 gets all the gays! He who takes option #2 gets all the Religious folk and their ilk. It's as simple as sectioning a pie. He who picks the biggest pieces for himself, wins. The most wonderful thing is that you don't even have to DO anything, you just have to pretend to care.

That's enough ranting for now...I could go on.

Since those are your thoughts and you agree they're not necessarily facts, I'll respect them as such and applaud you for your post.

Double Post Edited:

Yes, but the first rule of Techological War is that if you spend a whole bunch of money on some powerful weapon, and you get the chance to test it--WTH? Go right ahead and blow up hordes of people! Unexploded ordnance is a waste of money (b/c we'll have something new by the time a new war rolls around); "delivered" ordnance is Progressive!

Forgot to add Rule #2:

Mercy is for the weak.


[Read: Add 40% Cynicism and 60% Sarcasm]

Rules are meant to be broken... (laws are different however.)

However, one thing about technology-it must be tested, no matter the environment and no the matter the casualties, otherwise one will never know whether such an item is worth it's weight or not. Afterwards, we must expand on such technology or else it wasn't technology to begin with.

As for rule #2, I can easily tell that is sarcasm. Mercy in itself is just another strategic move.

[Sabaron]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Since those are your thoughts and you agree they're not necessarily facts, I'll respect them as such and applaud you for your post.

Double Post Edited:



Rules are meant to be broken... (laws are different however.)

However, one thing about technology-it must be tested, no matter the environment and no the matter the casualties, otherwise one will never know whether such an item is worth it's weight or not. Afterwards, we must expand on such technology or else it wasn't technology to begin with.

As for rule #2, I can easily tell that is sarcasm. Mercy in itself is just another strategic move.

When you boil anything down you can either take the side of: It's morally prudent or it's logically prudent. The difference is merely a simple choice and determines how one plays one's RL game, so to speak. I do not purport to expound on the morality (one way or the other) of any given issue. I just like to think about stuff and see what people say about what I think. I don't always necessarily agree with my own musings after a time, but simply let them occur. Morality is too thick a subject matter for me, but like I said, I'm not into the forcing of one morality onto a nation (read: geographically isolated group of people). For instance, I could care less about Canadians having "Swinger's Clubs" even though the Fundies are all uppity about it (I dislike uppity people for the most part, they're no fun at parties). It is neither my place nor desire to interfere with others as I can in no way guarantee that such is or is not a correct methodology for living one's life. Thus, I generally find myself in the place of the observer (e.g. sipping lemonade while others exterminate one and other over some beef they have). As long as they kill each other quietly, I'm all about it. I think it would be rather more pleasant when they all self-destruct--I'd just prefer not to go down with them (thus my only involvement would be to prevent them from doing something that adversely affects me & mine).

Of course then we get into stickier subjects such as Ethnic Cleansing and treating people as cattle, etc. , etc. People are always doing "naughty" things, and we can't save everyone, nor would it necessarily be good for the species/planet as a whole if there were no conflict.

Happy Unicorn Faerie Forest is one of the easiest places for a power-mad dictator to overcome. (unless the Unicorns horns are 3' long and have a special "Impale" power that involves some sort of eldritch druidic sorcery...)

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

The ancient code of the Samurai that ran through the veins of the governing body of Japan in the 40s would not have surrendered. They would probably have commited Sepukku before yielding to the Westerners!!!

/endretardation

Was the Atomic bomb a good thing or not? Remains to be debated forever. Did it save American lives at the expense of million of Japanese? No doubt.

History books are written by the winners. I'm sure the World War II classes in Germany are very short. I asked my German friend what she was doing in school on 6-6, and she didn't catch that June 6th was the normandy invasion.

Just like the Japanese don't want to talk about how they RAPED the Pacific Rim (conviently forgot to mention that, I see, Maju), the German curriculum doesn't acknowledge the drastic defeats, but rather, the shining victories. They learn about WW2 via the "innovation of Hitler," be it the BLitzkrieg or the defeating of France.


At least American's recognize that as a country, we're extremely idealistic and, yes, the rest of the world hates/is jealous of us.

But at least we can admit it.

[Feba]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

It is quite well-known Japan was going to surrender regardless of whether or not we had dropped those bombs.

yes, but the bombs certainly sped up the process.

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

yes, but the bombs certainly sped up the process.

Quite true.

[Maju]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Never said I thought it is okay,so I suggest you shut up instead of trying to put words into my mouth, because that makes me sick more than anything.

I'm pretty sure you implied you would wipe out the Middle East if possible to get rid of muslim extremists.

Never said we did.

Well, in that case I don't know what you referred to in your previous post.

Germany is weaker today then they were post-WWII. Japan is stronger today because of their competitiveness.

Define weaker and stronger. Do you mean their economy or military power? Germany's economy was a huge, huge mess until WW2. Japan on the other hand doesn't even have a proper military force today. Their defense is largely dependant on American forces.

Actually, if you do demonstrate your power-that's exactly what you do, hit the bastard where it hurts. THAT is the first law of war.

The first law of war? Oh please. What difference does it make whether you actually hit them or not? If the enemy knows you can wipe out a city in one go they're going to piss their pants and surrender anyway.

Do you even realize surrendering IS a military strategy and has been so since war was first realized? Ever heard of Trojan Horse?

Huh? I fail to see what you're trying to say with this. I hope you don't mean Japan could have surrendered, secretly developed nukes of their own and wrapped them up in a nice gift box and sent them to Washington as a Trojan Horse.

Hmm, if you said Iran should have no nukes-then I might believe you're serious about that.

Iran should not have nukes. Their new president smells like big trouble to me.

Actually, I don't think anyone should have nukes at all, but that's a different topic.

Just like the Japanese don't want to talk about how they RAPED the Pacific Rim (conviently forgot to mention that, I see, Maju), the German curriculum doesn't acknowledge the drastic defeats, but rather, the shining victories. They learn about WW2 via the "innovation of Hitler," be it the BLitzkrieg or the defeating of France.

I'm not trying to defend the Japanese. They did behave extremely badly. Two wrongs does not make a right, however.

Also, German schools do not glorify Hitler like you seem to think. He is just as hated there as he is anywhere else (except among the neo nazis, but those are few and everywhere, not only in Germany).

[Stromgarde]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Nuking Japan had less to do with Japan than it did with Russia.

[Sabaron]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

Nuking Japan had less to do with Japan than it did with Russia.

Most interesting, please elaborate.

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Ding dong the Witch is dead!

I'm pretty sure you implied you would wipe out the Middle East if possible to get rid of muslim extremists.

Not even close. There's a difference between doing something because it's possible and having to do something because it must be done.

Define weaker and stronger. Do you mean their economy or military power?

Without a good military, your economy will die out. Without a good economy, you cannot afford a good military. You need the one to have the other.

Germany's economy was a huge, huge mess until WW2. Japan on the other hand doesn't even have a proper military force today. Their defense is largely dependant on American forces.

Actually, Japan does have one of the best military forces of today. Do you even know what prevents them from becoming the best military (yes, posibly even better than the United States Military)? Their own constitution, the only thing it has to do with America defending them is we'll drop our defensive (not necessarily offensive either *wink*) agreements with them.

As for the rest, as Grandma stated-take it to PM if you want.