Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

[Shishimura]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

To X1ang: My problem with Clinton was not with his policies. Don't ask don't tell was good enough although I am all for openly gay people in the Military. Keeps them from running around and sneaking to meet with others. He failed at welfare but so has every other president. He was very weak with international politics. Sorry but reducing trade restrictions only hurts the US workers by making it easier for companies to get products and resources outside the US importing the final product for cheaper. All the trade changes made in the last 20 years have only caused our money to leave our shores. (Trade deficit)

My problem with Clinton is with him. He is a man of no moral fiber or backbone. He is an acknowledge Draft Doddger. How the heck can he be the Commander in Chief? He was the highest ranking military member and able to send the US Marines anywhere for 90 days without congressional approval. He had no right being president. Funny that the Democrats bashed Bushes questionable service record when Clinton DODGED THE DRAFT. Secondly, The sex scandle. Enough Said.

Jarre - You believe in freedome of speech for you alone it would seem. I guess the Iraqi people should have been left to suffer. The war in Iraq is a messy situation politically but from a human rights stand point it was cut and dry. Suddam had to go. Take the time to talk to these service men about the Palaces? How about the death houses. Men and women sent to their death. If the women agreed to have sex with Saddam or some official they got to stay in the nice house and be treated like a queen until they die.

But what ever... sometimes those that seem ignorant are really just stupid.

A note for those that like to talk about economy and presidential economic policies, it takes 6-8 years for a policy to have an impact on the economy unless that policy is so significant that it causes a huge wave the likes we have not seen in a long time. Example would be, total value of imported goods sold in the US can only equal 10% of all sales nation wide.

[Jarre]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Ok firstly. its not a gripe about the principle of what the war was to do, its how it was carried out and still is being carried out, yes sadams in court, but the main problems of the country still hasn't been sorted and a different tactical appraoch which includes listening more to the UN would have prevented all the hate around the british and US troops, another 4 british troops died last week. Its Americas war which he dragged our gullable prime minister Mr Blair into. As mentioned I have the freedom to say what I feel but the war hasn't improved the lives of iraqis much as they still live in fear from suicide bomebers etc which seem to be still going strong, I can't watch the news without seeing another bomb in Baghdad etc being reported or some civilians died etc.

As for the British involvement it is deeper than you think in how it effects things at home. Currently in my county they are considering closing 3 part time fire stations in 3 villages which means that it would take 30 minutes for the nearest fire engine to turn up to a fire there. We were going on strike this week to protest against it. we have had to call it off as the government are refusing to allow the military to provide fire cover while we are on strike as they say they don't have enough to do the job (and this was a national fire strike as its not just our county that they are making massive cuts to fire cover), the reason being 70% of our military is in Afganistan and iraq fighting the wars that the loonitic Mr Bush has dragged us into. We cannot leave the country with no fire cover so we have had to cancel the planned industrial action. The government wins again by forcing us to go by our concience. The result of this is that 35 fire stations in the Uk will close within the next 2 years the only reason is to cut costs, though this will elave over 500,000 people having to wait nearly half an hour for a fire engine to turn up. a house fire can take hold fully in 5 minutes, you do teh math. The Uk government have spent billions of pounds on this war that has nothing to do with us. no other country is helping fight this war its just the US and the UK, leaving US taxpayers to foot the bill of the excessive amount of increase in the military budgets.

Must i remind you of the amount of time it took bush to react to the disaster in new Orleans, the delayed response to a catastrophy in your own country. Bush refusing to join the Kyoto agreement to minimise co emmissions etc. why wont America help try and prevent any more major global warming considering they are one of the top 5 countrys in the world contributing to it. I think i have said enough. all I ask is please look at the bigger picture its not all the news says, you need to anylyse whats true and whats been covered up, don't be single sighted, be more broad minded.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and view, this is mine.

[Shishimura]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

You say the peoples lives have no improved because that is what the media wants you to see. Why? Because humans are attracted to negative images. We like to see that bad. No one tunes in to see all the good that has been done. No one wants to know how many people now have fresh drinking water that have gone more than 7 years without. No one wants to know about the new schools that have been built or the electricity that has been given to people that were without. No one wants to talk about the new businesses that are open or about all the other positive things that are going on daily thought the country. The lives of the general population are much better now. Yes. In and around Bagdad there are suicide bombers. The terrorists that want nothing more than to cause terror. The left over Saddam loyalists and the Shite minority that hate the fact that they are no longer in charge.

As for your country aiding the US. I love the way everyone turns their back on the US when we want help. I guess WWII was too long ago to remember. As for listening to the UN. If we had done that we would still be in exactly the same place we were 3 years ago had we listened to the UN. Mind you it was not the whole UN that was against the Iraq war. It was France who was supplying weapons and technical support to Iraq. France who's people were profitting illegally from the Food for Oil program. It was Russia that was supplying weapons, technical support, and logistical support to Iraq. It was Russia who was still owed billion of dollars in Oil from Iraq. It was China who hates America and was also supplying weapons and technology to Iraq. Do you see a pattern here? The UN is completely powerless because France is pathetic, Russia is still corrupt, and China has no business on the Security council to begin with.

But these are my thoughts, feelings, and interpritations of the facts. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I do not live in England so I can not speak to the actual events in your country. If like the US you are suffering budget cuts to support the war then I submit to you for consideration that maybe your country like the US really needs to look at how much money they are wasting (We waste a TON) and fixs that first.

Anyway, I enjoy a good debate.

[Neomage]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Yeah >.> Jebby will never get it. If the democrats and rebubbys don't get better people into office, I bet in the next 100/150 years we will see(well obviously not us) a book titles "The rise and fall of the United States of America". We eally need another roosevelt.

[nazlfrag]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

You say the peoples lives have no improved because that is what the media wants you to see. Why? Because humans are attracted to negative images. We like to see that bad. No one tunes in to see all the good that has been done. No one wants to know how many people now have fresh drinking water that have gone more than 7 years without. No one wants to know about the new schools that have been built or the electricity that has been given to people that were without. No one wants to talk about the new businesses that are open or about all the other positive things that are going on daily thought the country.

WHere did you get this information? From the media, or first hand from Iraqis? I think you're only seeing what the media wants you to see. Not the negative spin, the government propaganda spin. The western powers starved the Iraqi people by closing trade barriers in the corrupt 'Food for Oil' extortion. It was up to the Iraqi people to despose Saddam. You do know America is harbouring weapons of mass destruction? Would you support a foreign takeover of your country? The Americans are in another Korea, another Vietnam. No way to pull out with victory, the best they can hope for is a 10-12 year stalemate before their position becomes utterly hopeless in the face of local resistance. The longer they stay, the less chance of stability in the country as more join resistance movements. No country will accept a foreign occupier without grassroots resistance. Fighting a war on terror is just a ruse - it is modern day imperialism. Why does America have over 30 military bases in the Middle East? It's a leftover from the cold war.

The lives of the general population are much better now. Yes. In and around Bagdad there are suicide bombers. The terrorists that want nothing more than to cause terror. The left over Saddam loyalists and the Shite minority that hate the fact that they are no longer in charge.

The Shiites comprise approximately a third of the population. Can you see where this is going? A third of the country, at least, is directly opposed to foreign occupation. They hate the fact that a foreign power thought it could bypass the UN and invade their country, and get away with it. They have endured decades of oppression from the western world, in fact they (especially their oilfields) have been occupied by western powers from the fall of the Ottoman empire post World War I until Saddam liberated them in the sixties, making Saddam a saviour and hero, the liberator of the Iraqi people. While pointing fingers at Saddam's corrupt dictatorship you seem to be blind to all his neighbours, who have a mix of monarchies (the King rules) to theocracies (the Church rules). The people in these countries don't have elections, something which Saddam did have, however biased.

As for your country aiding the US. I love the way everyone turns their back on the US when we want help. I guess WWII was too long ago to remember.

Like how the US turned its back on Europe, refusing to aid the allies until forced out of neutrality by Pearl Harbour? Even with Hitler running rampage through Paris and Moscow? Yeah, I remember. So do they apparently.

As for listening to the UN. If we had done that we would still be in exactly the same place we were 3 years ago had we listened to the UN.

Which was to let weapons inspectors do their job, which guess what? They were doing...

Mind you it was not the whole UN that was against the Iraq war.

No, just the entire security council, barring the US of course.

It was France who was supplying weapons and technical support to Iraq. France who's people were profitting illegally from the Food for Oil program. It was Russia that was supplying weapons, technical support, and logistical support to Iraq. It was Russia who was still owed billion of dollars in Oil from Iraq. It was China who hates America and was also supplying weapons and technology to Iraq. Do you see a pattern here? The UN is completely powerless because France is pathetic, Russia is still corrupt, and China has no business on the Security council to begin with.

Can you remeber the Iran/Iraq war where Saddam was a hero against the tyrannical Iranians? Your government supplied weapons and technology it Iraq, including the chemical warfare agents later used on the Kurds. You armed Iraq and Afghanistan in the War on Communism, by turning their countries into killing fields. Not to mention, at the same time you were selling weapons and technology to the Iranians. France and Russia are known to have supplied them with.. oil refineries. That's right, French and Russian multinationals ran the Iraqi oilfields. Do you see a pattern here? France and Russia were to lose their economic assets, and China positions itself against America because of Korea and Vietnam.

[Perrin]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Actually I have first hand info from the Iraqis, most are glad we got rid of Sadam, a lot don't want us here any more, but at the same time they don't want us to leave. Supposedly what they want is for us to stay near by if they need us, but avoid going into thier cities. Won't happen for a while, but we are slowly shifting to a point where our ARMY won't be doing as many missions as the IPs and IAs. We will provide Air Support and recconasaince but not much else unless needed.

Yes that day is a ways off, but the transition is happening now. I'm over here right now and I see a lot more good being done than the Media portrays. Its just sad that some people believe 100% what the media says.

Any way, back to the orig. post... I really don't doubt that the constitution will some day be ammended to let persons not born in the US run for president. It may not be soon, but it WILL happen of that I'm sure. As to Jeb... I dunno who I'm going to vote for this time around. But I know it WONT be Hillary.

[Jarre]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

You say the peoples lives have no improved because that is what the media wants you to see. Why? Because humans are attracted to negative images.

I kinda see your point there, but you have got to see that yes the media likes to get a good storey and show what they want, just think how many reporters got awards for their reporting of 911 etc, I know the BBC won a television award for covering it, the media will always make money out of tradgedy. But remember a coin has two sides and you need to have the ability to see both sides i.e. with the war the good things and the bad things.

As for your country aiding the US. I love the way everyone turns their back on the US when we want help. I guess WWII was too long ago to remember.

Like how the US turned its back on Europe, refusing to aid the allies until forced out of neutrality by Pearl Harbour? Even with Hitler running rampage through Paris and Moscow? Yeah, I remember. So do they apparently.

My question, why is the film Pearl Harbour biased and has an untrue ending?

Nazlfrag does sum up a response to this well, and note the "world war" as it started when the Germans invaded a country (Poland if I recall) then tried to take over the whole of europe and also it was a religeous war, note the gassing of millions of Jews etc. It is difficult to compare this with Iraq as the type of war and warfare are different, the goals etc.

As for listening to the UN. If we had done that we would still be in exactly the same place we were 3 years ago had we listened to the UN. Mind you it was not the whole UN that was against the Iraq war. It was France who was supplying weapons and technical support to Iraq. France who's people were profitting illegally from the Food for Oil program. It was Russia that was supplying weapons, technical support, and logistical support to Iraq. It was Russia who was still owed billion of dollars in Oil from Iraq. It was China who hates America and was also supplying weapons and technology to Iraq. Do you see a pattern here? The UN is completely powerless because France is pathetic, Russia is still corrupt, and China has no business on the Security council to begin with.

Don't forget that america does the same with Iraqs oil, and France is..... well us brits have never had good relations with them, with all the asylum seekers coming over from calais, the French authorities turnign a blind eye as they are gettign rid of them from their country etc.

And Perrin, nice to get a view from someone who is involved in this situation.

I do not live in England so I can not speak to the actual events in your country. If like the US you are suffering budget cuts to support the war then I submit to you for consideration that maybe your country like the US really needs to look at how much money they are wasting (We waste a TON) and fixs that first.

Hell yeah, I don't know what public service isn't having a budget cut!! plus tax has gone up, fuel prices are at an all time high (I pay equivilent of $6.45 a gallon for my car) 40% of that is tax!!!! Our pride and joy of the national Health service is falling into a right state and our population has no confidence in our government, still a few more years to the next election (sigh! ) Yet ou government still raised our defense budget by £4billion.

Anyway, I enjoy a good debate.

Myself too shishimura and I'm glad we can sit back here and have a civil debate on this.

[Shishimura]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Two or three quick points... I think we have all made our positions clear.

I work for the US Military and speak almost daily to young Marines that are going, coming back from, or have been (some several times) to Iraq. They all tell the same story. Yes it is a mess in Iraq but it is getting better ever day. Saddam was worse than even the Media portrayed him to be. (That from a linguist who used to spend half his day with normal Iraqi people) Tehy all hate CNN, BBC, and FOX with all the rest of the media because they never show the great work that have done.

The US was actively engaged in WWII in Europe (spring '41) prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor (Dec 41).

It is very easy to make the case that everyone hates America, Until you get attacked and then the first country called is America. There is not one country that has not called the US for assistance when they were in trouble. We are expected to bow down before the MIGHTY UN (What a joke of an organization that has become) and put our troops out in front for evecything. I guess Bush decided he was tired of being the UN Whipping boy.

Personally, I would suggest pulling all US troops back to America and telling every other country to kiss our butts. If we did that, and I am talking about a sudden 90 days or less complete withdraw, I can promise you that there would be multiple conflicts withing 5 years and that everyone would be calling for us to restablize the globe. America is screwed up that is for sure. No more or less than most other countries. Fortunately we have the basic human rights thing strait and we have an unmatchable muscle.

Anyway... JEB is an idiot... The Dems have no one better... I want a Realist to run for president.

[Rodin]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

It is very easy to make the case that everyone hates America, Until you get attacked and then the first country called is America. There is not one country that has not called the US for assistance when they were in trouble. We are expected to bow down before the MIGHTY UN (What a joke of an organization that has become) and put our troops out in front for evecything. I guess Bush decided he was tired of being the UN Whipping boy.

Personally, I would suggest pulling all US troops back to America and telling every other country to kiss our butts. If we did that, and I am talking about a sudden 90 days or less complete withdraw, I can promise you that there would be multiple conflicts withing 5 years and that everyone would be calling for us to restablize the globe. America is screwed up that is for sure. No more or less than most other countries. Fortunately we have the basic human rights thing strait and we have an unmatchable muscle.

While I don't agree with a lot of the things Shin has said, I have to say that I COMPLETELY agree with this. I have noticed that many countries that do hate the US, would call for the US in their time of need. It's a love-hate relationship really. The Taliban (I believe were recognized as the Mouja-w'adin at this time) back when they were fighting off the Russians embraced the US's help. Then, when the US pulled out of Afghanistan, the Taliban pretty much declared war on the United States. Why? Because, the US would not offer their help anymore. I remember a friend of mine telling me that in the Phillipines (he lived on base), America is openly trash talked and many citizens of the Phillipines hate Americans. BUT, many of them don't take into account the amount of help that the US has given them. Not only monetary, but we ended up gaining back control of the Phillipines after Japan invaded in World War II. Which, if any of you guys know what Japanese armies did to native people when invading a country, you'd think the US deserves a little respect.

Anyways, a student-teacher I had was a Marine. He told me all about Iraq. He said the people there love the Americans. He said one family would give them food, and a local drink, that was made of Tea, Honey, and Sugar. While that's all fine and dandy, Bush didn't go to War to liberate the Iraqi people. The reason he went to war was to dis-arm Saddam. Sanctions opposed on Iraq after the first Gulf War Strictly prohibited Saddam to have Nuclear, Chemical, or Biological weapons. Which he did. BUT, they were, as Jarre said, American made, from the 60s when Saddam was a "hero" because of the Iraqi/Iranian conflict.

Also, don't take this too literally, but this War IMO, ended up happening very quickly. Also, it was very convenient for Bush to go to War. Bush was being openly criticized by many people about his actions with Social Security, and his approval of the Patriot Act. And IMO, when Bush couldn't take it anymore, he created a scapegoat in the form of Iraq having Nuclear Weapons. But that's just a theory I have, nothing too serious.


EDIT:

Just wanted to thank you guys for keeping this a mature, adult conversation without resorting to using name-calling, or the "You're WRONG, and I have no proof to back it up, because I'm right about my politics" response. /bow