Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

[Tsikuro]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

It feels as if some of the stupidity that was rampant on Alla forums influenced that last post.

[Rodin]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

They'd been planning 9/11 for years. Long before Bush was president. Its really a reasonless hatred. They hate our culture and they just hate us. Has nothing to do with who is president.
The war was about stopping a madman from murdering 10's of thousands of his own people.
The phone taps were perfectly legal (part of a presidents powers in a wartime state) and were only used on people known to have Al Quada connections and only when there were phone calls made to lines outside of the US or incoming calls from outside the US. In fact something like 80 some odd percent of people in this country said they don't mind their own phones being tapped in those circumstances. Because guess what? The CIA doesn't care you're having phone sex with your girlfriend or that you talked to your grandmother the other day and told her what you want for your birthday. The translators who monitor the phone taps aren't some jackoff that just graduated from college with a foreing language degree, they're people who are highly fluent in that language and understand the different dialects that can be used.
All in all you put too much faith in one man. Even the president doesn't have the power to accomplish all the stupid things he's been accused of doing. I totally understand not agreeing with a lot of the things he's done. But, realize there is a reason for them and most likely we as regular people don't have the intel to realize why a lot of these decisions are being made. Personally, I'd rather have him as a president than Kerry or Gore. Personal opinion. I realize none of what I just said will make anyone here think even slightly different about it. But there are two sides to every story and CNN isn't always the most unbiased in the stories they present.

Btw, the last 4 presidents, including Bush before 9/11 were guilty of not recognizing the thread Al Quada posed to our country. Something the CIA and FBI were screaming for several years.

EDIT: oops, almost forgot about the original topic. I really wouldn't worry about Jeb even running for pres. I think it was just the older brother trying to throw some love Jeb's way. The frontrunners at this point are McKain (if he still wants it), Rice, and maybe Giulianni. I'm sure I murdered the spelling on a couple of those names.

Ok, 1) The war wasn't about a madman murdering tens of thousands of his own people. The war was caused by Bush accusing Sadaam of having WMDs and having links to Al Quaeda. And some would go as far as to say, "And he tried to kill my daddy." Which was something George said shortly after he invaded Baghdad.

2) There is no proof that only people with known links to Al Quaeda are the ONLY ones being tapped. In fact, the Patriot Act gives the CIA and Homeland Security total disgression over who they want to tap, WHEN they want to tap them. In fact, I believe they're allowed to arrest you and hold you for no reason at all. Which is a CLEAR VIOLATION of Habeas Corpus. All in the name of "National Security".

3) Well, the CIA screams about a lot of things. I have a family member who was a "Photographer" for the CIA for 20 years. He says the number of dangers to the US is astonishing. Did you know that if you live in 200 miles of a Nuclear Power plant, you're in a terrorist target zone? Do you know that Al Quaeda has enough money stashed away to buy enough un-accounted-for Nuclear warheads to turn New York into a smoldering pile of ashes? And it's not just Al Quaeda, many countries have this type of access to weapons of mass destruction. My American History teacher had a student-teacher (a lackey) that had just turned from Iraq. Did Bush find weapons of mass destruction? Yes. Why wasn't this spread across the news? Because they said, "Made in the USA" on them. (Btw, that was a metaphor)

IMO, Bush has done a very bad job handling what is important right now. Everyone in Washington is concerned about rebuilding Iraq. Making them a democratic government. Well, IMO, that's just Bush trying to put a band-aid on a "boo-boo" he committed. I mean, we should be putting all of our forces into finding members of Al-quaeda and bringing them to justice. We still have not found Bin-Laden, that fucking coward is probably laughing at Bush right now, because in the back of most people's minds, he has been forgotten about. We need to find this bastard, which should be the number 1 priority of the US. But no, Bush has his head up Iraq's ass. While Osama is hiding out somewhere. I mean, how the hell did we find Sadaam so fast, but Bin Laden has been eluding us for years?

Sorry about this long rant, but I think anyone who thinks the patriot act is a good idea, and that "only terrorists get tapped" need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[Caspian]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure there are a lot of people who think Enemy of the State is real. And I'm sure it does have some basis in reality. I think it basically boils down to just not really caring. I'm not doing anything illegal, and until it ends up on the news that all these people are being arrested w/o cause and we've turned into a dictatorship, I'm really not gonna worry about it too much and leave it to the paranoid and the conspiracy theorists to wave the flag of "Big Brother". And there's been no proof that its anyone but people with known links who have had their phones tapped. We can assume the governmont is lieing to us, but I think thats something that you could assume no matter what party was in power in the government.
My personal feeling is Bin Laden is nothing more than a figurehead, yeah it would do good for morale to capture him, but its really not vital to stopping the Al Quada. We've gotten most of the ones who actually did the planning. He's just some guy who delivers the message.
Like I said, we're not gonna convert eachother anytime soon. I understand where you're coming from and respect your opinions. Like wishmaster has said, its great that we can have these conversations. Hell, its why I love America. This thread has remained civil so far. I'm all for continuing this conversation, so long as it remains that way. Props to you Rodin for not making personal attacks. I know when some poeple don't think the same way as you, it can get easy to start attacking someone.

Oh yeah. Yes, I know WMD's were the official reason for going to Iraq. Personally, I'm not sure it was the whole or real reason for going. I think taking out a genocidal madman was at the top of that list. Personally, I don't care that there weren't any WMD's there. Good was accomplished and the people there are a lot safer now than they were when Saddam was in charge. Granted, everything isn't hunky dorey over there, but it was worse before all of this started. Its even starting to look like there won't be a civil war. (Something Bush has been blamed for, even though at most the war only expedited its onset.)
Anyway, looks like Iran is next. And we're not even the ones spearheading the effort. This time we have France and Germany with us too.

[drecan]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

All i know is i'm voting for the person that is going to pull our guys out of Iraq. I just got off a 6 month 6 cruise in the gulf and a good portion of it was spent in the country of Iraq and the stories i've heard >.>

[x1ang]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

One of the sadest things you notice is how easy people's ideals on things change during the mood of the time. Was I against the war before it started? Yes. But no matter what I thought before, I'm strongly against pulling out... especially at a time like now. Look at the general public views, a HUGE majority of people supported going to war.. and now many of those people who supported the war earlier are now calling for America to pull out. What is their excuse? That they felt threatened by the "claimed" WMDs that the government and media so powerfully convinced them existed. If that's so, then why did they support sending troops to Afganistan? It's more of an American feeling of invincibility and world power... and the short attention span of Americans in international issues. After realizing that Iraq (including Afganistan) isn't going to be over as planned (honestly, many thought it would be a simple get in.. wipe out the enemies whoever they are with our superior forces and all will be good - which is just several months in the minds of people). You saw it happen in Vietnam (even though, I see America as the oppressor and "evil side" - if you can call it - in that war) and it is happening now in the war today.

What has the U.S. done wrong? Well, the U.N. is one for certain. We are the only nation that makes the U.N. have such a powerful influence it has today. Yet, what have we done to it? We've basically proved that the U.N. lacks the power to enforce what is ruled to the rest of the world. And.. what the hell has happened to Afganistan and our reconstruction efforts there?

Why do I say that we can't pull out now? Because look at the state we've brought their country to. We created the mess and it would be irresponsible of us to suddenly pull out and leave it to the them, esp. for a nation that's the prominent leader in international issues). Does Jeb Bush have the right to run? Hell yes. Will I support him? Well, I'd look at his domestic and internation policies and agendas and see if it matches with what I believe in before deciding, as I do with any politician.

(Yes, yes my grammar is horrible xD)

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Personally, I don't care that there weren't any WMD's there. Good was accomplished and the people there are a lot safer now than they were when Saddam was in charge.

No offense Caspian but people need to look at it from all points of view. One of those points would say to you "You can say that, you didn't loose a child in that military action."

Or you could look at it from the point of view of someone living in Africa, "Where was the United States when 800000 people were massacred in the Rwandan and there are still atrocities raging?"

How far do we go? How many of our loved ones lives do we risk? Why do we ignore the slaughter of human beings in one country but chase fictitious WMD in another? Too many questions, not enough answers. ; ;

Do I want 4 more years of the Bush regime.........hell no.

[x1ang]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

It's pretty simple. No (or very very little) Americans were killed/harmed in the Rwandan genocide, yet in the case of the war now: 9/11 (deaths of many Americans) -> Afganistan & Terrorists -> Iraq.

[Caspian]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

No offense Caspian but people need to look at it from all points of view. One of those points would say to you "You can say that, you didn't loose a child in that military action."

Or you could look at it from the point of view of someone living in Africa, "Where was the United States when 800000 people were massacred in the Rwandan and there are still atrocities raging?"

How far do we go? How many of our loved ones lives do we risk? Why do we ignore the slaughter of human beings in one country but chase fictitious WMD in another? Too many questions, not enough answers. ; ;

Do I want 4 more years of the Bush regime.........hell no.

I totally understand where you're coming from. My personal feelings on it are that we've lost some people, but in the end done a good thing in the world and in the end saved a lot of potential lives lost. You're right, I don't know what its like to lose a child in the war. Perhaps my views would change if that were the case, but thats not something I can even pretend to understand. I'd like to think that I'd understand the sacrifice and understand that they did something they believed in and believed in dieing for. (The people I've talked to who were involved in it totally believed in what they were doing. I'm sure there are some there that don't, but I haven't met them.) My personal feelings are that you honor their deaths by completing what they were fighting for. I know there are some who feel differently.
Note that a lot of the reason I believe these things has a lot to do with my religion. Not really sure how to end this, so I'll just stop typing now.

[Shishimura]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Lemmings!

Get an education. Study micro and MACRO economics.

Serve before you judge military action.

Stop believing what only one news source tells you.

Stop believing in a party and start believing in the actions.

[ChimeraOfLakshmi]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Now that this conversation has shifted to the War in Iraq, here's what I have to say. I didn't agree with it from the start, and I still don't. I'm not the gullible type, but anyone intrested in this should watch Michael Moores film 9/11. Sure a lot of its speculation, its still an intresting watch. But I'm personally not worried so much about the Middle-East, Its North Korea we need to be thinking of. Im not going to go into detail here, there are plenty of articles available. I was just kidding about the whole apocolypse thing, but you still have to wonder. You can believe whatever you want, and so can I. That's what makes America what it is. Right now I live with my mom (only 18 here) and she is in total support of the pres, lets just say that we have some "aggressive debates lol". The best thing that people can do is to educate themselves, and America makes that possible, take advantage of it! Anyhow......Nice weather today^^

[Eohmer]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Seeing how Jr did the same as his father, I sincerely doubt the people would even consider voting for another. Even the Republicans have to be smarter than that! >.<

[ChimeraOfLakshmi]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Republicans are not smart, they're rich!(Just a joke^^)

[711rocks]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

He'd probably have a good chance of winning >.>
Those damn red states only vote based on morals ><
God, Gays, and Guns is all those hicks care about.
Not every single one though, it's a bit more liberal in city areas. I don't really want to sterotype, but I was recently went on vacation to a place called Famington, MO, and those backward ass rubes really are like all those jokes people make.

[Genesite]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Wow, talk about liberal, south-bashing sterotypes. I'll have you know I grew up in the Carolinas. I am a white male, age 18-35.

Do I own a gun? No.
Do I have a confederate flag? No.
Do I believe in the safety and lives of my fellow Americans on and off the battlefield? You're damn right I do.

A very large portion of your troops are southern, because we love our country. I'll tell you right now, the south is just as torn on the Bush administration as any other part of the country, because it's our children, our parents, our brothers and sisters dying in these far off places.

Personally, I loved Bill Clinton. He was an extremely intelligent man who did his job right and enjoyed BJs.

If you want to pile all southerners into your jaded, egocentric stereotype, remember what Ron White said - "Next time you have a thought, let it go."

[Macht]

Re: Oh For The Love Of God, No!!!!!!!!!

Eh, not like we'll vote for just any Tom, Dick, and Harry.... Oh wait...