Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* >.<

[WishMaster3K]

Note, use Spoiler tags asyou see fit. I basically announced that there would be spoilers within the post, so no one should complain otherwise >.>

Well, according to our Shortest Red Mage Super Mod (as far as I Kno), Tackmage himself:

Ubiquitous Harry Potter spoiler

Benevolent optimism killed the Dumbledore.

Honestly, I was disappointed by the latest book. Harry is nowhere near where he needs to be in terms of skill, Dumbledore was exhausted from a number of other reasons, and I just can't shake the fact that Rowlings lost her mind in this last book.

Any thoughts? While it was a very engrossing read, story-wise and content-wise, I felt that it was. . . hmmm, Rushed? Not sure. I'm a bit conflicted on the latest installment in the series.

On the POSITIVE side, there was mild profanity and some very mature themes and undertones. It seems that this is moving beyond the children's book it started out as. Harry is dealing with relationships (Ginny >.>), Ron is dealing with his image, and Hermione, it seems, finally hit puberty. Although she was annoying most of the time, I actually like Hermione's character.

Ok, I'm rambling. Discuss, please!

Cause I'm somewhat in the dark.

And I've forgotten most of the plot, I finished it 2 days after it came in the mail.

[Caspian]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

I finished it 2 days after it came in the mail.

Lol, same here.
As far as Harry not being uber enough, well he's not supposed to be. Dumbledore has always said that their greatest strength is eachother. Voldemort uses others as tools, but they care for eachother and help eachother. So, Harry doesn't have to be, but he combined with Ron, Hermione, and some of the others maybe do need to be so.
Taskmage and I have been discussing the "death" of Dumbledore. If he can, have him post the discussion thus far. I would, but I have ffxi running in the background and is making other things run super slow atm.

[Taskmage]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

*casts Tackstorm on Ren*

I don't really see how we can have this conversation without encasing the whole thread in spoiler tags, so I'll just do without. I'll post here what I PMed to Caspian.

I haven't actually read book 6, but my wife has tried to read me some of it just to get it into my head and we've talked about it. I don't believe he's dead either. Gimmie a break. He's probably the 2nd most powerful wizard in existence, and Voldemort came back six times after "dying." Dumbledore keeps a phoenix in his office (isn't that his patronus?), he's been storing his memories in the pensieve ... he's got more than enough excuses to come back as Dumbledore the White, break Voldemort's wand, and make off with the Palantir.

My wife thinks he's definately dead for good. Snape is alive, it's been shown that Dumbledore isn't infallible, and it's needed as a plot device to force Harry to stop relying on other people. To me, these are all only good arguements for Dumbledore to be dead now. None of that necessarily means he's going to stay dead.

I want Sirius to not be dead too, but ... nah that poor bastard's gone for good.

Ok, six times is inaccurate, but he's come back a few times. Snape definately killed Dumbledore dead, or the unbreakable vow would've killed him. I don't believe we've seen the last of him, though.

Guess I'll read the book tonight since it looks like I'm going to be up caring for a sick little taru.

Double Post Edited:
Oh, ok. Here's the whole thing. Caspian's reply to my above post, followed by alternating replies:

Friend and I talked about it for an hour or two, and have sinced discussed it several times. Here's the thing: He tells Harry earlier that you should never fear death, its only a change, nothing to worry about. Yet he keeps saying "Severus, please. Please Severus." Why would he be pleading for his life if he didn't see it as a bad thing to fear? He wasn't concerned at all when Malfoy was going to do it. Why would he be with Snape? When Snape uses the curse, Dumbledore is sent flying into the air and shot across campus. That never happened before. Everytime you've seen it used, people just drop dead right there. There's no theatrics to their death.
Lastly, though there are no clues in the book per se, its just a really bad idea to kill him off. Especially with Snape doing it. Everyone else had misgivings about Snape, everyone except Dumbledore. His faith in people has always been on, why would this be the one instance that would spell his undoing? Right along with that, its a horrible way of writing. You expect Snape to actually be bad. How crappy of a thing is it to actually be right? That's like a mystery where you basically know who it is right from the beginning. There's no surprise, nothing. But how much cooler is it when you think its just been spelled out for you and all of a sudden you turn a corner and its totally something you didn't foresee or expect.
Anyway, thats my take on it. Yeah, its possible he's dead, but I don't think he is.

Nah, I don't think Snape is evil. I think he's on whichever side has the most power, like a true Slytherin. But ... if he didn't really kill Dumbledore, wouldn't the unbreakable vow have killed him? Also, maybe the curse he used wasn't Avada Kedavra. My wife has been murmuring something lately about Avada Kedavra being more than a curse of death - like it goes a step farther and kills the spirit, and that's why it's unforgivable.

Hmm, haven't heard that. It might have been a way to trick the unbreakable vow, or it might be a semi death to appease the vow, but make it possible for Dumbledore to come back. I think Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to do whatever it was that he actually did. Snape didn't want to, but Dumbledore knew he must. I also don't think Dumbledore would allow Snape to actually do the unforgivable curse, like he wouldn't allow him to do something that evil. This was something that was dangerous, but had to be done kinda thing, I think.

Yeah, I agree. Pleading with Snape to save Snape's life rather than his own. Possibly Snape has some important role to accomplish for the order.

Yeah, I think so too. Something that couldn't be shared with anyone else. Guess we only have a couple more years to find out.

[Caspian]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

EDIT: Task posted the whole thing.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

... he's got more than enough excuses to come back as Dumbledore the White, break Voldemort's wand, and make off with the Palantir.

ROFL

Snape definately killed Dumbledore dead, or the unbreakable vow would've killed him.

Hmm, interesting. However, as much as I hate Snape, he's a crafty bastard. So who knows? Maybe he's on the good side after all? You can never tell 100% with Snape, but I'm holding out for some uber alterior motive.

1. Ok, after reading the posts, yeah, I totally agree.
2. He already posted those , Caspian, lol. Or did he edit the post >.> Annnnnnnnnnyway

Dumbeldore's knack for looking 10 steps into the future is, imo, what made him such an ideal character. Gandalf didn't die, and neither will Dumbly. Or. . . at least I hope so. Also, didn't Harry "die" as well? Wasn't it Fawkes that saved Harry (at least 2-3 times, at that, lol)

And I don't think Rowlings is a bad writer, she was able to tie in things ppl may have missed, such as references from Sirius to the first books. But the whole Snape thing has left me up in the air. . .

EDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's 4am, so I probably won't see the replies till I wake up, but this is very interesting, nonetheless

[Taskmage]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

Dumbledore's unwavering belief in people's better nature's doesn't always pan out, I'd like to point out. Just look at the lineup of defense against the dark arts teachers.

There's no question Snape is a double agent. As the what side he's "really" on, well ... I think he's on whichever side he thinks is going to win right now. As my wife points out, Snape was in a position where he could have easily manipulated the outcome of the events in the Hall of Prophecies simply by relaying information to one side or the other a little faster or a little slower than he did, with no danger of compromising either side's trust in him. Voldemort failed to hear the prophecy and a lot of Death Eaters were captured, so that's evidence enough for her that he's really a good guy.

My only question is why Snape entered the unbreakable vow in the first place. He was in a position to easily turn down Narcissa, and Belatrix's opinion should have been of little importance to him. He would have known that as soon as he entered that vow he could no longer remain a double agent, destroying his value to both the Order and the dark lord, so why did he do it?

[Caspian]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

Part of a greater plan? Dumbledore said he knew of Malfoy's plan for a long time. How long? Even before school started? Could be part of the whole thing from the beginning. Maybe force Harry not to rely on Dumbledore, but yet Dumbledore can still watch out for him? She better have that book out next summer.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

Harry is a retard >.> There, I said it.

Oh and the HalfBlood prince's books, that was a nice twist to the story. I hope Harry comes into his own, though. I hate seeing main characters constantly winning by the skin of their teeth. They need to have some sort of weakness, I agree, and that's what makes them interesting entities to follow from a literal stand-point. But however. . .

Isn't it time that Harry came into his own? I mean, wow. He needs to do some hardcore training, like, on a mountain top with an old master.

Ron, on the other hand, has constantly impressed me. I think it might be harder to see, since it's all from an internal point of view, but Ron seems to have grown the most since the first book. Hermione is a prodigy, and she's always has been my favorite. Harry is a douche >.> He gave up a hot asian chick for a skinny red-head.

Furthermore, he gave up the skinny-turned-cute red-head to pursue the New-Old-World-Order. *sigh* A lot of things get me mad, and it's not the story, but the character development. Rowlings nerfed Dumbly and Harry is in major need of an overhaul. With his life turned topsy-turvy, it might be an ideal time to do so.

[Taskmage]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

http://bannable-offenses.blogspot.co...ying-nerf.html

Double Post Edited:
Nah, the spending a year on a mountaintop or a swamp on Dagobah and coming back as a badass to deus ex machina all your problems away thing has been done. It's not really a particularly useful plot structure that people can relate to, either. Desire yes, relate to no. I think Rowling intends for Harry to barely survive (or possibly barely not survive) on his own power and come out the other side as a "normal" person who's experienced some extrordinary things. Like the hobbits. All just speculation of course.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

Yeah yeah, I know. But it's frustrating to have a main character that's so. . . fragile? I guess that's what makes the book so good in that many people can relate to Harry. He's, essentially, human, and shouldn't be placed on some pedistal as a higher being.

Maybe that's what she was going for in the first one. What with his celebrity status not affecting him, because he lived his whole life not knowing about it?

[Karinya]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

One thing that seems to have been overlooked here: Snape is *the* master of nonverbal spellcasting (as well as Occlumency, having fooled at least one of Voldemort and Dumbledore). What he's saying and what spell he's actually casting could be totally different things. This is a tremendous asset to a double agent - most people will assume he *is* casting what it sounds like he's casting, without even being aware of the assumption. And this could apply just as much to the Unbreakable Vow as to whatever he did to Dumbledore.

On the other hand, Dumbledore would give up his own life to defeat Voldemort; his willingness to do so is one of the things that differentiates him *from* Voldemort. Having Snape kill him - permanently or not - accomplishes several things: mainly, it galvanizes Harry and it cements Snape's position in the Death Eaters. (Perhaps Snape took the Vow already knowing what Malfoy's mission was and having agreed with Dumbledore to make it succeed...) If he's not really/permanently dead it also gets him out of Voldemort's surveillance and any interference by the Ministry (if they both believe he *is* permanently dead).

Voldemort won't even consider the possibility that it was Dumbledore's idea for Snape to kill Dumbledore, or that Snape could kill Dumbledore and be loyal to Dumbledore at the same time. He can't comprehend the idea of self-sacrifice and I think his arrogance/egotism is being set up as his downfall. (Voldemort *might* consider the idea that Snape is a rogue agent loyal only to himself, and betrayed Dumbledore in order to get into a position to betray Voldemort. Which might also be true.)

Or, of course, the point could just be that Dumbledore made a mistake and trusted the wrong guy. It's a different kind of point, but still important. I would be disappointed, though, if it turned out that after all, anyone unpleasant really *is* evil. The HP books present a progressively more mature view of the world and that's the kind of simplistic thinking that really doesn't fit the later ones.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

Good points. I'm going to have to re-read the books. That's one thing I never did, actually. I think re-reading the 4th one, despite how effing huge it was, would have been good for me

After the 4th book, they've been getting smaller >.> Just an observation.

[Caspian]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

Harry is not by any means helpless. Nor is he the Luke Skywalker come back after a year as one truly badass jedi. Think about it, he and his friends fought off Death Eaters. These guys are bad news. They are more powerful than most aurors, and Harry was able to defend himself against them. He knows his mission and now he's determined to finish it. He won't stay broken up with Ginny, for the same reason that he can't leave his friends. He needs them, they give him strength.
Also, everyone keeps saying this book will be the last one. Negative. You think she's gonna give up a book series thats made her one of the wealthiest women in Europe? Not bloody likely. I'm betting on more books about him becoming an auror. Its not like people want the series to be over anyway.

[Nightmare]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

as was i disapointed...and yes harry needs to be further in terms of skill. the only thing he can do that takes skill is the Patronus Charm

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Latest Harry Potter Discussion *SPOILERS* &gt;.&lt;

That whole time thing was a good explanation and usage of time travel by the way. So many games/movies/books use time travel so incorrectly >.>

The problem with time travel movies is that accurately portrayed time travel makes a boring story. If BttF worked the “right” way, Marty’s parents would have already been successful at the start of the film, and we would have seen that Marty’s interaction with their past made that happen. That would have been more accurate, but it would have felt like nothing happened, that nothing changed. It’s just not nearly as narratively fulfilling as seeing the divergent futures — one that involved a trip through time, and one that did not.

Seen this way, Marty doesn’t travel through time so much as he hops to another universe identical to the one he knows except that, for whatever reason, it happens to be 1955. So when he travels to its 1985, it’s quite a bit different from the one he came from. But then why does a time machine travel through alternate universes when it goes backwards, but not when it goes forward? Makes no sense. So, again, if we take it the way the movie works, technically his return to 1985 is just traveling to another universe identical to the one where he traveled to a 1955 and…y’know, it’s really hard to zero in on these incredibly specific universes out of an infinite number of variations. And let’s not even start to dwell on the fact that alterations to the time stream in this system mean nothing. Marty’s original universe where his parents are losers is still out there — only now their youngest son has disappeared without a trace.

You can’t change the past because any chronological “changes” to the past are already a part of your history before you got there. This extends to trips to the future too. Your future is someone else’s past, so the same rules apply.

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