Emo kids

[dirtyclown]

Re: Emo kids

Dimmu is Norwegian, I believe. And I admit, they are too far from emo to even be in the same sentence. I apoligize. My (very goth/satanic even) friend introduced me to them a year ago, but they are too intense for me. They were the only name that came to me at the time, and I didn't think anyone would catch them, let alone know who they were, lol. As soon as I figure out a decently emo group that I haven't cliched yet (ok, Yellowcard just came to mind), I'll edit my post most righteously.

Yep, they hail from Norway. They bill themselves as black metal, but they moved far away from that after their first album. Keyboards, technical guitar riffs and crystal clear production do not a black metal band make.

On topic, I think I have to agree with Macht. I don't have a degree in child psychology, but I was a kid for 18 years, so I think I'd know a thing or two about how a kid's brain works. Even if I don't know technical jargon and whatnot, I did alot of independent study on the subject. Unfortunately, my static party is about to start, so I gotta go.

[Omni]

Re: Emo kids

"I'm sure you mean well by it, but my upbringing has brought around a tremendous amount of disbelief that anyone with years of experience is any better then someone with days of experience. As long as both have the knowledge they got out of the books or whatever other study methods."

What are we putting on the table here? The ability to play baseball? The ability to learn how to use a vacuum cleaner? You put this idea to say, someone who is a doctor and you'll have a malpractice suit faster than you can spell malpractice. You put a doctor that has had 20 years of medical practice under his belt and a doctor that just started his own practice after coming out of residency and tell them to diagnose 100 randomly chosen cases. There you'll see where years of experience puts lack of experience to shame. What you will typically find is that the latter, the young doctor will over-diagnose, under-diagnose a heck of a lot. While the former, through logging many hours at his practice will have that instinct. That's one thing books and studying can't teach you. You will undoubtily face situations in any field where it is undocumented or unapplicable by your knowledge and this is where experience wins hands down.

[Macht]

Re: Emo kids

There you'll see where years of experience puts lack of experience to shame. What you will typically find is that the latter, the young doctor will over-diagnose, under-diagnose a heck of a lot. While the former, through logging many hours at his practice will have that instinct. That's one thing books and studying can't teach you. You will undoubtily face situations in any field where it is undocumented or unapplicable by your knowledge and this is where experience wins hands down.

Sorry, again like I said years of experience or very little as long as they have good knowledge is still my standing. 3 WELL experienced doctors almost got my mother killed saying her problem was a "Inner ear infection" causing vertigo. It was a younger experienced doctor that caught the cavernous malformation and saved her life. Were's the experience crap now?

Yet again I've had doctors suppose to be top of their field and they gave me a combination of medication that could be fatal. It was a doctor with half his experience that realized it and saved even my life. Experience means close to jack **** to me, person can claim to work in a field for 30 years and yet his knowledge is 29 years rusty experience will not cover that and yet knowledge can cover the experience lacking far better.

The most I'll consent to is that the absolute greatest combination is a group, but not just simply a group of experienced but a mix. More eyes young or old looking at a problem gives a better chance to resolve it then just experienced only.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Emo kids

What about too many cooks spoiling the broth? I can't cite personal examples, but there are many cases with my athletic friends.

My friend who plays baseball had to get Tommy Johnson(?) surgery, which is actually a quite common surgery for pitchers. But the situation was, he was good freshman and the beginning of soph, got injured, and was told by one doctor it was only a sprain. It wasn't until much months later, in May, that another doctor properly diagnosed him.

Unfortunately, he was out his entire junior year, and had to do therapy his senior year, so his pitching dreams of being in a Division 1 school were dashed. . . He's fine, good thing he could fall back on education, but it's good to trust your body and get more than one opinion.

Macht, how did yor mother know that the diagnosis of those 3 were wrong? Was it that the methods were not working as they said they were?

Omni, I think maybe Macht didn't express himself relevant to the topic, and that you two are arguing apples and oranges.
-An experienced mechanic can know a car's problem just by you turning the ignition, and an experienced doctor can tell a sore throat via bacteria between a sore throat via virus.
-But there are new doctors who are more willing to try new-age procedures, and have better ways of figuring out things.

I can use my two chiropractors I've been to over my short time: one guy, Doc Goldstein, is approaching 70, and he's very well knowledged. He's had over 40 years working with bodies, and the human bone structure doesnt change.

Another doctor I went to, however, has different ways of treating different things, and with new technology in medicine, he can treat small and minor problems much differently. doc Goldstein is still very experienced, but still relies on his older, more solid methods. Both are good, butI have to, unfortuntely, go to them for different things.

Like when I fractured my toe in karate, when I went to the hospital, they didn't bother xraying me and told me I inflamed my foot due to a sprain. It wasn't until I went to a specialist that I found I had an in-line fracture. . .

Ok, turned into an OT rant, but I guess the general concensus is that it's good to get a group opinion, and at the very least, go to a specialist. The most important thing is to act based on how your body responds. I knew that due to the pain I felt, I didn't have a simple sprain.

It seems to me, that we are the one's who know our bodies the best >.>

[Omni]

Re: Emo kids

Macht, your situation is similar to mine but in reverse. So re-thinking my previous statements, it doesnt seem like experience nor knowledge plays any role in anything at all? or atleast when its so tilted to one side of the pendulum where one completely out weighs the other.

One experience with this is when my father diagonosed a young boy that had fallen in school and apparently landed on his side. The boy was brought in to the walk-in where my father works after being seen by 2 younger physicians. Both chalked it up to some bruising from a hard fall, but the boy was still feeling pain but only when he was lying on his side. When my father examined him he couldnt shake the feeling that something was wrong. All x-rays were normal however, all other tests seem ok so natually, given the circumstances: young kid, playing in school > brusied ribs. My father couldnt figure it out w/o doing more tests. After 2 younger physicians passed him along as OK my father called for an ambulance to rush the kid to the hospital for an emergency MRI. Turns out the kid was bleeding internally. He had ruptured his spleen and if he didnt take him call for that emergency MRI to find out what was going on, the kid would have bled to death by the end of the day. This is where that instinct comes in that only experience gives you. However, I'm sad to hear that it wasnt there when your mom needed it.

So as OT as this has gone, i'm out of steam as usual. It's good hearing counter arguments that hold some good weight.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Emo kids

Thanks for another laugh TGM...

No no! Thank YOU for the laugh Macht, your ignorance and ego is astounding!

[Siber]

Re: Emo kids

There's no such thing as OT in my thread, so continue. It's a good read.

In it's simplest case, one could point to FFXI for experience vs. non-experience. Level 75s don't always know more than level 50s. 50s have done things 75s haven't, and 75s have done things 50s haven't. You can't read about everything, but you can read about most. Granted, the doctor thing is a bit more complicated. Are instincts honed by experience or are they natural to the person? Also, your dad had the benefit of knowing that the boy was still hurting after having seen 2 other physicians. Not saying anything about your dad, but couldn't it have just been lucky circumstance?

your ignorance and ego is astounding!

Pot calling the kettle black LOL!

[Taskmage]

Re: Emo kids

All the experience and learning in the world can still be hamstrung by poor judgements made in laziness, arrogance, stress, haste, unrest, etc. It's also true that people who have been at certain professions for a long time can become stuck in grooves and not consider alternate solutions or scenarios. My parents are medical professionals, so I've heard all kinds of horror stories of doctors basically ordering a person's death for all of the above reasons. I don't believe the guy with 3 days of experience is as good as the guy with 3 years, but either one is still likely to make a mistake.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Emo kids

Hey hey hey! How dare an ego conversation go on w/o Renarudo the Red being present. Everyone knows I'm the best thing to happen to, well, the world, since sliced bread.

Can you imagine [b]slicing your own bread[/i]!?!? ZOMG, the horror!!!!

Moving on, I've come to accept that gut instinct is a good thing to follow, moreover, the instinct we have with our own bodies >.>

If you're walking down a street and feel uncomfortable, despite Police reports of it being a safe neighborhood, are you going to continue on nonchalantly? If your elbow feels wierd 3 weeks after a "sprain," should you ignore the pain?

I suppose for emotional problems, it's different, but as Macht highlighted earlier, there is a difference between, say, chronic depression, and being emo.

I think maybe that's what you were trying to imply, TGM? When we make fun of emo kids, it's because we know they are just lost souls looking for attention. The kids who want nothing to do with the rest of the social scene appear to be relatively normal. No one dresses in all black and destroys their hair if they are seeking to "Evade" society.

Unlike someone who has a real emotional problem, emo's are just walking contradictions. Give them some Place For My Head or Somewhere I Belong (I'm running out of Linkin Park songs >.>) and a couple of razors and they'll be perfectly modest. I also think that if someone was truly comfortable with themselves that they would not harm their body.

That's just. . .wow, wierd. No matter how much anxiety about something I'm feeling, or how much pressure is on me, I couldn't bring myself to intentionally inflict a wound. There are many outlets for pent up rage/depression/energy, and it all starts with mustering self confidence to do something.

"We cannot rise about our convictions." If we tell ourselves we're useless sacks of shit, then, hey, we are.

I know I'm one of the best at. . . ok, everything, and that's reflected in my life. It's all a case of mind over matter. People can beat cancer just by refusing to give up. I'm sure some emos can mentally mature past puberty.

Edit:
TaskMage is an oxymoron. Nothing about being a mage is neither tasky, nor magey *shifty-eyes*

Since I posted after him:
Yeah, we are all human. I agree that mistakes happen, that much is granted. Well played.

[Macht]

Re: Emo kids

No no! Thank YOU for the laugh Macht, your ignorance and ego is astounding!

Not ignorance and not ego. I'm very willing to admit a mistake when good explination is given. More laughs yay!

Omni, I think maybe Macht didn't express himself relevant to the topic, and that you two are arguing apples and oranges.
-An experienced mechanic can know a car's problem just by you turning the ignition, and an experienced doctor can tell a sore throat via bacteria between a sore throat via virus.
-But there are new doctors who are more willing to try new-age procedures, and have better ways of figuring out things.

Yes, those situations are the basics I was stating that experience gives you. So the guy can solve a problem quicker with experience, but along with that problem is exactly like Taskmage pointed. They fall to much into groves and as technology or knowledge becomes more in-depth to solve a problem that may resemble another, people with experience have a tendency to become very arrogant and make the worst mistakes because they start to rely to much on experience and start to lack needed knowledge.

Even in Martial Arts the saying goes "For the best blunders watch the Black Belts, not the Whites". That very statement says the more experienced you are more likely to screw up worse then the least experienced.

I suppose for emotional problems, it's different, but as Macht highlighted earlier, there is a difference between, say, chronic depression, and being emo.

Yes, that was one of the points I was making in my own 'colorful' way.

Omni-Ragnarok: Yes, as you stated your experience being reversed to that is the very reason I stated the best is a mix. Yes to many but also to little 'cooks' can ruin the whole thing. It's all a matter of balance for the best results.

Just like going back to the Martial Arts things again. A guy with tremendous Power vs. a guy with tremendous Speed and the victor will be who can endure longer (50/50 chance). A guy with tremendous Power vs. a guy of balanced power and speed and the victory will always be the balanced person. A guy with tremendous Speed vs. a guy of balance and again victor is far more likely the guy of balance.

That's why statements of "yeah you may have knowledge but if you don't have the experience under you belt don't bother" irk me so badly.

[Omni]

Re: Emo kids

There's no such thing as OT in my thread, so continue. It's a good read.

In it's simplest case, one could point to FFXI for experience vs. non-experience. Level 75s don't always know more than level 50s. 50s have done things 75s haven't, and 75s have done things 50s haven't. You can't read about everything, but you can read about most. Granted, the doctor thing is a bit more complicated. Are instincts honed by experience or are they natural to the person? Also, your dad had the benefit of knowing that the boy was still hurting after having seen 2 other physicians. Not saying anything about your dad, but couldn't it have just been lucky circumstance?

Pot calling the kettle black LOL!

well the thing is, the word of a physician isnt taken lightly. If they say its ok, its ok. (usually) I guess there's more to it that i'm leaving out or have forgotten but nonetheless, 2 competent phyiscians passed up on it. etc etc. so on and so forth.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Emo kids

I'm sorry but you base the entire medical profession on the small percentage that make mistakes. *GASP* Guess what!!? We are HUMAN and we make mistakes! There is just no way of getting around it, we do. No one is perfect....including YOU! So yes it is ignorance and ego that drives your motivation and its incredibly sad. Each and every day there are medical professionals out there saving lives, improving treatments, and making many many more people happy and healthy than there ones making mistakes. You choose to dwell on the negative then thats all you'll see.

Not ignorance and not ego. I'm very willing to admit a mistake when good explination is given. More laughs yay!

I'm sorry but you base the entire medical profession on the small percentage that make mistakes. *GASP* Guess what!!? We are HUMAN and we make mistakes! There is just no way of getting around it, we do. No one is perfect....including YOU! So yes it is ignorance and ego that drives your motivation and its incredibly sad. Each and every day there are medical professionals out there saving lives, improving treatments, and making many many more people happy and healthy than there ones making mistakes. You choose to dwell on the negative then thats all you'll see.

[Omni]

Re: Emo kids

thx tgm. thats what i meant to say but i usually spew out something else.

[Macht]

Re: Emo kids

I'm sorry but you base the entire medical profession on the small percentage that make mistakes. *GASP* Guess what!!? We are HUMAN and we make mistakes! There is just no way of getting around it, we do. No one is perfect....including YOU! So yes it is ignorance and ego that drives your motivation and its incredibly sad. Each and every day there are medical professionals out there saving lives, improving treatments, and making many many more people happy and healthy than there ones making mistakes. You choose to dwell on the negative then thats all you'll see.

I know I am human and I do make mistakes. Now you are diverging away from the points I was making. I'm well aware that there are many saving peoples lives, and treatments being improved, but they are not all coming from solely experienced people. Many are simply stumbled upon by people with no experience PERIOD.

I made no crack that the medical field is flawed, my direct point is that people valuing experience over knowledge or even weighing experience as having any well founded basis are just gravely wrong. The medical part of it just ended up as an example basis were the person was weighing the idea that different professions would value experience differently. It really doesn't matter what profession, a broker can go from rich to dirt poor on 1 bad enough mistake. An IT profession can loose his job from 1 bad mistake regardless of their experience.

My whole statement I've said for the 3rd time is experience hold severly less value to good knowledge. I've had teachers, professors, and professionals state that it's 99% knowledge to 1% experience. If you've studied and comprehend the subject your about as well as the medical professional, the only difference is the medical professional has the authority to give you certain drugs, they get to play with the cool toys that help them make a diagnosis, and could just maybe (as a result of experience) find the problem faster then you but not always.

[Taskmage]

Re: Emo kids

I think when they have a lot of experience that magnifies our perception of their mistake, as well. To use a FFXI analogy, when you get a bad tank in Valkurm you think "geez, what a newb" and brush it off. When you're in a level 60 party and your tank is a rank 9 guy with a bunch of haijin gear, and he does a crappy job tanking you think "omg what a retard! How did he even get to be high level?" and have a stronger reaction because in your mind he should have known better. At least that's how I tend to react. Incidentally, I recently saw the worst tank I ever had strolling through Jeuno in an O-hat, Koga Chainmail, and a bunch of other pimp gear the like of which I will most likely never see, even though I'm the skilled player and he's a well-connected asshat. Many things in real life are the same way. Advancement is made through time and contacts rather than raw skill or talent. It may be that exceptional ability may earn shortcuts, but it's entirely possible for someone less deserving to reach a higher professional standing by playing his cards right, and that's just the way the world works.

The other thing is that experience grants a greater capacity for making mistakes. You're not going to ask a new member of your HNMLS to tank your first try at Jormy, but the guy that has proven himself against other targets is nonetheless in a position to get a lot of people killed.