What makes us human?

[Kagerou]

Re: What makes us human?

We are human because we like to come up of an answer to everything-even things that are impossible to answer.

[ln14jr]

Re: What makes us human?

We are human because we like to come up of an answer to everything-even things that are impossible to answer.

Good one! Short and to the point.

[Macht]

Re: What makes us human?

Nice speach ln14jr, but that's kind of reiterating everything again that's been stated already. Part of the problems to the argument though is that I've witnessed myself of animals supressing an emotion, need, and wants. That ability to supress it means they are also capable of control over them.

Then the debate of chimpanzees and immediatly denouncing their possibility of being human you end up ignoring about Oliver then. He is a chimpanzee but as many videos of him show his genetic structure is not like a normal chimpanzee. Even his physical structure and behavior is not entirely like a chimpanzee. Oliver has a smaller head then a normal chimpanzee, larger set forehead, smaller more human like nose, bald head, and the real kicker insists on standing upright.

Accounts of him also demonstrates that his behavior and actions go well beyond just training. When he shakes your hand it isn't just 1 hand grabbing yours with maybe a single up and down shake, with Oliver it's both hands grabbing in a very warm welcome. Even his hip structure had developed different which permitted his ability to constantly walk in a bipedal style also unnatural for a normal chimpanzee to do constantly.

DNA does show that Oliver has 48 chromosomes (Human 46 chromosomes) so he definatly isn't a Human/Chimp hybrid (Would have 47 chromosomes if he was) but some of his chromosomes are mutated away from what would be normal to a chimp.

There is so many accounts of stuff I've seen certain animals do that kind of makes me discredit those statments and that given the right influence, whatever influence it was given to us that they too would achieve similar feats.

[ln14jr]

Re: What makes us human?

Macht,

I agree with your argument somewhat. You are right that animals can be trained to accomplish various human feats. But again, I say that there is a barrier that animals will never surpass. That barrier is what makes us different. We have the ability to be innovative and produce new ideas and then apply them.

I seriously doubt that a chimp can accomplish the same feat. Please understand I am not saying animals such as chimps are dumb. They have an intelligence and the capacity to learn, yes. But I have not seen a chimp produce new ideas from old. Or seen a chimp apply these ideas to create or produce something. Who knows, maybe in millions of years (like planet of the apes) they may eventually make progress and do what we can. But as of now, I do not see that happening.

And further more, my argument of physiology was to discount this idea all together as being a basis for differentiating humans and animals. There are too many similarities in that respect. And if we use this as a basis for comparing animals to humans, we may as well classify ourselves as animals.

And to your point about supression. What I meant was humans can stop and think before they react, rationally. They can prevent their emotions from getting the best of them. When it comes to needs, humans willfully do it. Have you seen a chimp diet to keep their weight down? Or, abstain from sexual activity? Does a chimp think twice about eating or having sex when the opportunity presents itself. Most Humans, however, have the rationale to think twice. Animals simply don't. If I am wrong, please do enlighten me.

I have not said this to spite you. I am truly interested for you to prove me wrong.
I like arguments like this. I like it even more when people criticize me and see error in my judgment. I learn something. And I hope other people, such as yourself, learn something as well.

[Macht]

Re: What makes us human?

NP, I like a good debate. Unfortunatly I as far as proof of surpressing an emotion, need, and want all I really have is the accounts that occur between the 4 dogs I have. I unfortunatly have not been around chimps enough to see if they demonstrate similarly, the Science channels show called "Humanzee" about Oliver does point out an account something to this (He was at one point classified a Humanzee a Human/Chimp hybrid and old DNA test said he had 47 chromosomes, but DNA testing at that time was still in its infancy so likely of an error). When he reached maturity he tried to force a human woman to have intercourse, and yet he not once would attempt such a thing with another chimpanzee even when given the chance to.

That isn't the best example but closest I can think of to it of seeing with chimps. With my dogs though probably the best acount would be my long-haired Chihuahua, frequently he has choosen himself to reduce the amount he eats or not eat at all. At one point I had thought the problem to possibly be a result of him not feeling good, common for chihuahua's to get a pinched nerve and be in to much pain to eat. Had that checked out by 3 vets and he got a clean bill of health by all 3, either I just met 3 of the worst vets or my chihuahua's sudden light eating habits was his own choice to do. The only real positive thing we could find is that when the long-haired gets to a certain weight he'll suddenly stop, once his weights dropped down again he'll eat.

To me that has always seemed to demonstrate a surpression of a need, spent like over $900 on that stinker just to find that out . The two Rat Terriors I have share a single bowl of food and so far have never once finished the whole thing, they won't even stay and eat any huge quantity of it in 1 sitting. Each time they want food they'll take 2-3 pieces and continue on. It's been a pain to get them to get the proper food amount that they are suppose to have. In the Rat Terriors case though it really doesn't prove a huge consious choice of their weight but they are the first dogs I've had out of the 12 other dogs and breeds I've had to do that.

Back to chimpanzee and developing tools though, there is actually a culture between various chimpanzee's. The've proven that in one culture a chimpanzee may use a twigs to get a certain meal, but in other cultures for the same meal the chimpanzee would use a rock, leaf, or other item. One thing that seems to fit how technology develops is the necesity for it. One of the Rat Terriors I have had changed a doggie bed into a step stool so that he could get over a barrier, the dog did it because at the time I was on the other side of that barrier and the dog obviously saw it a neccesity to get over there.

Like that saying goes "neccesity is the mother of invention", the real question to the humanity as I kind of see it still hasn't really been answered here. That answer being what was the neccesity that humans had different from animals that would drive us to invent all that we have now?

It's obvious that for some reason we had a neccesity to develop a higher level of communication then what we had, we had a neccesity to develop a new way to shelter ourselves, we had a neccesity to develop the idea of property and ownership, some reason we had a neccesity to develop a religion and likely out of this came philosophy and from that came morality. You can see that our development as a whole hasn't stopped yet, but with the select few you can see it's a dead stop. Those few that it has, they are at that stop simply because they see all their neccesities as being met or feel they've learned everything they need to know (Going to another saying of "Can't teach an old dog new tricks", in some cases you can if that old dog still has an inquizitive behavior like the Black Lab/Golden Retiever I use to have).

That's kind of my take on the whole thing, it's the similar take too though you find in many scientific studies. You get hundreds of different explinations as what each person believes was the neccesity that drove us to invent everything we have. The question lying in that same point too is was it really neccesity that started it or did we just start developing everything without there really being a need for it in the first place? I mean what neccesity did art have? If it was neccesity for remembrance then why that? What need did it have way back then to remember that event? Also if that same need was recreated would an animal invent something of a higher level then they had before? If they do invent something higher then before will some drive to go higher and more complex in the invention then before start to occur?

There's tons of things I can think of as possibilities that could tie a good chunk of that together, but if it is right or not I still have not seen much to really say which. In either case that's one of the many focuses of Archeologists to try and see if they can get to what was that pinical moment or point that really defines humans from animals. Many religions though already have their belief of what it is weather it be right or wrong. Religions like Scientology though states that we are different because of our soul, basically that without this soul (or as they call it a 'Theta') we have we actually would be no different then a chimpanzee. After all our genetic makeup is like 95% or 99% of a match to a chimpanzee, about the only significant difference genetically is that we are 2 chromosomes less then a chimp.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: What makes us human?

Animals do not have a complex language, especially written. This sets us above and beyond them. Through our language we have developed laws, religions, go beyond physical expressions of emotion, etc. The day I see a group of chimpanzees have written laws, worship a deity, or write a love sonnet to their mate is the day I will say that the line is blurred.

[Macht]

Re: What makes us human?

Animals do not have a complex language, especially written. This sets us above and beyond them. Through our language we have developed laws, religions, go beyond physical expressions of emotion, etc. The day I see a group of chimpanzees have written laws, worship a deity, or write a love sonnet to their mate is the day I will say that the line is blurred.

Well in that statment I couldn't deny then, just shows the differences between a proactive and reactive minds.

[ln14jr]

Re: What makes us human?

I think I am beginning to see the bottom line to all this argument. It goes back to the question... What makes us Human? When we try to explain what makes us human, we try very hard to argue that we are not animals, or we are better than animals. The argument progresses to various accomplishments to the human race and the limited accomplishment to the co-sharers of this planet. Which makes me think... If the only differences is a "soul" and accomplishments, humans are just a bunch of egotistical and xenophobic-like species that wants to prove to the world that we are different and better than every living thing on this planet. My final answer to the million dollar question would be that humans are those who believe they are humans. (I guess Oliver, that makes you eligible.)