What makes us human?

[Reincarnation]

Re: What makes us human?

It's great you don't mind, but don't you think it would be better if this didn't become a war?

[DieselBoy09]

Re: What makes us human?

blah blah blah, no one blow a vein.
Caspian, I appreciate your posts and ideas, yet I still disagree with it. Yes for most individuals there is a system of norms that we follow regarding right and wrong which is passed through culture, however as individuals we are able to break the culture that has been passed over and over. Look at mass murders and genocide, if these norms truely applied to everyone, there would be no such incident. Everything conditioned can be unconditioned and the human mind can be reduced to things far less than that of an animal. The ability and possibilty for this to happen means that right and wrong are conditioned for the most part and can be reduced and manipulated, leaving me to believe, that if I so desire, I could take enjoyment in killing, rape, degredation, torture and other forms of sadistic nature. It is all, how we as individuals are created or broken down.

Can we not call people and things stupid and idiotic all the time? State your bloody opinions and give your reasons. There is no point to debasement unless you are wanting to open a conflict.

Double Post Edited:

Oh and on the side, I'm also an American...I just think that Republicans made the biggest mistakes ever, compared to Democrats. -.-
.

To me the look about the same from time to time. At the moment, I personally lean towards the democrats, but for the most part and political faction that has influence eventually is reduced to something I do not agree with.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: What makes us human?

Commmmmmunist.

[Macht]

Re: What makes us human?

Love, compassion, empathy, passion, inspiration, sympathy, despair, remorse,.....

Wooh, I have a puffer fish that expresses these emotions as well a chihuahua and a rat terrior. So does that mean they are human

As far as the breakdown physical makeup we really are no different then anything else living in this world. We have a 95% DNA match to chimpanzee's, animals have their own cultral structure (For dogs its passed to the puppies during their first like 6 weeks from their mother). This I know from a Black Lab/Golden Retriever mix we had, not even somedays after it's birth he was given to us we kept him alive and when he was grown he was extreemly intelligent.

He knew the right and wrongs of our culture, he only had to watch us do something 1 time and he'd mimic it however he could. This dog pulled weeds, opened doors, opened the backyards gate latch, retrieved the paper, retrieved the mail, could even water our lawn (He basically knew when it was time to move the sprinkler and would move it were needed next). He held a grudge against anyone wearing a uniform ever since that 1 incident were a guy in uniform pepper sprayed him. He eventually died of what was obviously a broken heart when his best friend a duck we also raised was killed.

Animals can exibit emotions just as well, if you can't see it then you've never met a truely smart animal. Our two Rat Terriors are constantly outwitting eachother and on a couple occassions have outwitted me. You can actually see them thinking processessing the situation and then taking action. If any of the current 4 dogs we have has a dispute or fight the Chihuahua is the one who decides who is right and wrong and controls the situation. One dog even stole a chewy from another the Chihuahua actually subdued the thief, took the chewy, and returned it to the dog it belonged to.

They are capable of thought process, no if you tried to explain to the dogs and such things such as "String Theory", "Theory of Gravity", and "Quantim Physiscs" the honest trueth is that they won't respond because first off it's like an English speaker trying to communicate with a person who speaks a different language. Both sides are going to look at the others like they are idiots, they'll eventually be capable to communicate in some degrees by associating words to an object. This is definate with my dogs, they know when they are to be fed and will remind us by a specific bark and a scratch of the bowl. Yes the bark is specific it's the same thing a low growl followed immediatly by a scratchy double high pitch yelp in which is followed by a scratch of the bowl.

So to say that an animal won't comprehend more of the high level thoughts is hard to say really. Especially when many control tests are just way to inaccurate when first off the subjects can't understand the focus or goal to the test because you can't efficently communicate it to them, and if you can you can't effectively develop the communication high enough to start going into such things as theory and philosophy.

So physically I really would say there is little difference, the only thing physically to seperate us is the body structure, movement capabilities, and probably the most defining is potential brain mass. Frontal lobe development, or anything else conserned with the brain is basically blown out of the water especially when a child who's lost half his brain is still capable of communication, still capable of philosophical thought, and still capable of many other things.

Now then spiritually depending what religion you look at you can then see Humans as the spirit to be different. Scientology is one to follow in this similar manner, so is Christianity, and Catholics. Hindu and the Kuran however still tie it all as the spirit still being similar regardless of human or animal.

So in the end it's your own belief that really defines what makes you human.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: What makes us human?

Wooh, I have a puffer fish that expresses these emotions as well a chihuahua and a rat terrior. So does that mean they are human

Highly unlikely. Animals exhibit base emotions. Humans have a much broader range.

[Macht]

Re: What makes us human?

Highly unlikely. Animals exhibit base emotions. Humans have a much broader range.

I don't know about that, maybe like 8 years ago I'd of agreed. More recently with the animals I've had and seeing their behavior it's hard to believe that it's only just base emotions.

I mean I've witness my animals express more complex ones then just happy, sad, angry, or fear. I've seen them express more complex ones such as compassion, embarresment, and sacrifice. If you mean into ranges such as lust and such, the emotional range detectible without involving more of a communication base is hard to accuratly range. It's the key reason as to why communication is needed so much as part of confirmation of some emotions.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: What makes us human?

What about Kujo huh?!

That dog was broadly pissed off.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: What makes us human?

I don't know about that, maybe like 8 years ago I'd of agreed. More recently with the animals I've had and seeing their behavior it's hard to believe that it's only just base emotions.

I mean I've witness my animals express more complex ones then just happy, sad, angry, or fear. I've seen them express more complex ones such as compassion, embarresment, and sacrifice. If you mean into ranges such as lust and such, the emotional range detectible without involving more of a communication base is hard to accuratly range. It's the key reason as to why communication is needed so much as part of confirmation of some emotions.

The emotions that a homo sapien exhibit are much more complex and are interwoven with their language. When they love, they tell one another in words or writing. When they are angry, they yell and tell why they are. When they are sad, they cry on someone's shoulder and tell them what has happened. Homo sapiens emotions are much more complex than the base emotions that an animal feels.

Homo sapiens language and emotions are also interwoven with things like Morality. In animals, it is derived from genetics but in homo sapiens they communicate it through their language and feelings.

Homo sapiens are aware of their mortality. Animals fear death but they do not realize that it is imminent. Homo sapiens know they die so eventually the individual will die.

Our social structures are more complex. Yes animals have their hierarchy but homo sapiens make laws, rules, etc. They communicate them via a complex language both verbally and written.

A big difference is that homo sapiens have organized religion. They have the capacity to conceive of God or Gods. They communicate this to one another and then worship in song and prayer.

All of these things make us human, but I like to think that our complex emotions and range of language are the most outstanding features.

[Kagerou]

Re: What makes us human?

The thread starter should read some old text and make his/her own thesis.

[Macht]

Re: What makes us human?

I'm telling you TGM, I would of agreed like 8 years ago. Most of what you stated has communication as a founding backing to prove evidence of these complexities, the fact that we can't really communicate with the animals create that same barrier.

By black lab/golden retriever mix (Named Rigel) knew his death was coming, he actually was even preparing his own grave in our backyard. He made a specific spot, even made what appeared to be a headstone of sorts out of various rocks from the backyard. None of us showed anything to him of this behavior he acted on it entirely of his own accord. I don't know but this show evidence that he knew of death and was preparing for it.

Again much of these other complexities as you state still require a method of communication that we can understand. Yes, you see a pack out in the wild and they do have a hierarchy and it is very basic. See a pack of dogs in domestication and isn't exactly the same. Rat Terriors have a specific time they stay with their mother after birth, the main reason that's even proven is because that time period is were they learn the proper temperment and behavior (This is not genetic, they actually have to learn it).

Same with Rigel he wasn't born with a genetic hate for people in uniforms, in fact just like the people loving dog he was he would even greet them. He only developed the hate for people in uniform after 1 pepper sprayed him. If you ever had a dog like Rigel and then owned a half-breed of wolf you'd see the clear difference. If you owned the 4 dogs I have right now, all 4 have a wide variety of attitudes and all 4 follow rules of which we set and the 2 older ones I've witnessed actually set the 2 younger ones straight in accordance to the rules we've set.

Hell 1 of the older dogs even knows she's doing something against the rules and constantly tries to get away with it, the other older dog will stop her knowing the action is against what we've set. The are capable of taking on and learning a rules and law structure and even enforce it, again provided on if they are truely smart animal or just one that does whatever it feels like.

In either case you can definatly find some dumb humans that'll do just like a dumb animal so complexity truely is a fleeting grounds to use.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: What makes us human?

Yeah... animals... at least cats and dogs, and probably pigs too, have some type emotion beyond fear, hunger, relax, and anger. I dare to say, my cat gets very jealous anytime I pet my other cat or play with my dog. If I ignore her, she begins doing he best to get my attention. She even starts doing cute stuff, like she knows what I would find interesting.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: What makes us human?

I'm telling you TGM, I would of agreed like 8 years ago. Most of what you stated has communication as a founding backing to prove evidence of these complexities, the fact that we can't really communicate with the animals create that same barrier.

By black lab/golden retriever mix (Named Rigel) knew his death was coming, he actually was even preparing his own grave in our backyard. He made a specific spot, even made what appeared to be a headstone of sorts out of various rocks from the backyard. None of us showed anything to him of this behavior he acted on it entirely of his own accord. I don't know but this show evidence that he knew of death and was preparing for it.

Again much of these other complexities as you state still require a method of communication that we can understand. Yes, you see a pack out in the wild and they do have a hierarchy and it is very basic. See a pack of dogs in domestication and isn't exactly the same. Rat Terriors have a specific time they stay with their mother after birth, the main reason that's even proven is because that time period is were they learn the proper temperment and behavior (This is not genetic, they actually have to learn it).

Same with Rigel he wasn't born with a genetic hate for people in uniforms, in fact just like the people loving dog he was he would even greet them. He only developed the hate for people in uniform after 1 pepper sprayed him. If you ever had a dog like Rigel and then owned a half-breed of wolf you'd see the clear difference. If you owned the 4 dogs I have right now, all 4 have a wide variety of attitudes and all 4 follow rules of which we set and the 2 older ones I've witnessed actually set the 2 younger ones straight in accordance to the rules we've set.

Hell 1 of the older dogs even knows she's doing something against the rules and constantly tries to get away with it, the other older dog will stop her knowing the action is against what we've set. The are capable of taking on and learning a rules and law structure and even enforce it, again provided on if they are truely smart animal or just one that does whatever it feels like.

In either case you can definatly find some dumb humans that'll do just like a dumb animal so complexity truely is a fleeting grounds to use.

Knowing death is coming and realizing your mortality with many years left on your life are two entirely different things. You still are not listening. Homo sapiens have a complex language both verbally and written. Last time I checked there wasn't an animal to be found that could write me a letter. Via this complex language system we are more fine tuned to our emotions which guide our exsistance. All of this puts us leaps and bounds over animals. Animals can be conditioned, that is true. People can be conditioned but they can also verbally and in written form state their complaint and even use a law, rule, etc to back them up. I don't see too many dogs, rats, pigs, cows, ducks, geese, etc filing any complaints or hiring lawyers.

We use our language to convey our emotions and because of the complexity of our language we are able to communicate our emotions more intricately than any animal. I know my husband doesn't tell me he's horny by humping my leg!! He'd get a swift kick in the......

[Kagerou]

Re: What makes us human?

We are human cause we chose to draw that boundary long time ago. We classify ourselves as humans to distinguish us from others, thus creating our own secure area where we feel safe knowing what we are (to secure our identity). Emotions are semi-non-related due to the fact that almost all advanced organisms have the ability to "feel" It's the degree of it that becomes the factor that seperates us from other animals.

That's why the theory of evolution is so controversial cause it breaks that traditional boundary that we created hundreds of years ago, making us feel almost "unimportant." It's that classical humans as the center of the universe theory of Pico della Mirandola that lingers with us, giving us (to put it negatively) that overblown ego.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: What makes us human?

Death too good for 'cruel, twisted and inhumane' serial-killer couple
Junko Ogata

Bloodthirsty, sadomasochist lovers Futoshi Matsunaga and Junko Ogata may have been sentenced to swing from the gallows, but there are some who say executing the couple convicted for killing seven people only once isn't enough, according to Shukan Gendai (10/15).

Fukuoka District Court's Kokura Branch handed down the death penalty to Ogata and Matsunaga, saying that their crimes had been "cruel, twisted and inhumane."

They may still have been involved in their murderous lifestyle had it not been for a young girl who escaped their clutches in March 2002 and revealed a tale of heinous horror almost unparalleled in Japanese criminal history.

The girl, then just 17, revealed that in a period just over two years from 1996, Matsunaga and Ogata had killed Ogata's parents, sister, brother-in-law and their two children, as well as the girl's own father. All the bodies were chopped into little pieces later dumped into the sea.
Futoshi Matsunaga

"Matsunaga's hideous sexual proclivities were horrifying. Matsunaga forced his common law wife's mother to take part in a simulated rape and he used a stun gun on the genitals of Ogata's niece, who was only a little girl 10-years-old, giving her an electric shock," an investigation insider tells Shukan Gendai. "When we raided Matsunaga's home, we found loads of pornographic photos and videos that he had taken. There was even photos where Matsunaga had taken pictures of naked women walking around with vibrators still inserted into themselves."

Amazingly, the girl whose escape led to the cruel couple's capture, is putting the pieces of her life back together despite years of torture at the hands of Matsunaga and Ogata.

One of the first things the girl did following her escape was let loose with everything she had experienced during her ordeal as Matsunaga and Ogata's virtual slave, according to a close friend who comments to the men's weekly.

"It was just such a shocking experience that opening up about it was the only way she could deal with it. She said that in the period before her father was killed (in about 1996), the couple set about making her and her father hate each other. They were forced to punch each other upon fear of being given a jolt from a stun gun. Matsunaga and Ogata ordered her to punch her father as hard as she could. That experience really seemed to have hurt her," the friend tells Shukan Gendai. "(Matsunaga and Ogata) only let them eat food scraps. In the cold winter, the girl and her father were locked up in a freezing bathroom while the couple sprayed icy cold water down on them. It was a torture. She did say, though, that she'd had some pleasant dreams about her dad after he died.

"The girl also talked about a stew (Matsunaga and Ogata) made using her father's body parts and how Matsunaga insisted that she drink the broth. He isn't human."Despite having been put through a living Hell, the girl, now a woman of 21, is finding her feet.
Shukan Gendai Oct. 15 edition.

"She goes to night school and has a part-time job at a kid's home. She didn't go to high school much. She also got her license as soon as she turned 18. Now, she's really cheerful. She sometimes even laughs. She looks happy and, with a bit of make-up, is quite a looker," the friend says.Nonetheless, the dark days the young woman went through have apparently not entirely disappeared.

"She hates Matsunaga and Ogata with a vengeance," the friend tells Shukan Gendai. "She said, 'I hope they get executed as soon as possible.'" (By Ryann Connell)

October 7, 2005

Source: http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai...0dm013000c.htm

That is something I don't see an animal doing. If anything makes us human, it is in't emotion, its desire. What animals desire varies between each other, pack animals want to be accepted and in general all animals want to eat. However, as our mind has expanded, human beings' desire have become twisted and vase. If there is a god, this is not his will, I am sure.

[Caspian]

Re: What makes us human?

That's why the theory of evolution is so controversial cause it breaks that traditional boundary that we created hundreds of years ago, making us feel almost "unimportant."

Actually, evolution is quickly falling to the wayside. For the most part only the media and a few hardcore biologists believe it in anymore.

I'll agree, some animals seem to know what right and wrong is...a dog knows not to crap on the carpet. But my challenge is that its not because he understands the outdoors is a better place for it, or that it entails work by his owner to clean it up. The dog does understand that if he craps on the carpet, then hes gonna get kicked. In a way, its what seperates a young child too. When I was little I didnt say bad words or talk back to my parents b/c I knew I would get into trouble, not because I realized that it was disrespectful and that you should do what your parents ask.
As humans, we understand that something is wrong b/c of its moral implications, not just because of the direct consequences to ourselves.

DieselBoy, I understand where you are coming from, but the difference is this:
999 times out of 1000, when people do those awful things like murder or genocide, its b/c they somehow have deluded themselves into believing that what they are doing is different, that there is some sort of exception that makes it ok this time. Even Hitler honestly thought that he was bettering humanity. Make no mistake, I'm not defending Hitler in the slightest, just using him as an example. When people do evil things, they find ways of making their conscience feel better. I dont expect this to change your mind, but please read it and think on it for a little while. Thanks