2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Ah, you have to love it. Everyone who doesn't have time to do it decrying those who do as having no life.

See there's these things people have called "Job," "Car," "Signifigant Other," "children," "home," "sleep," "food," "activities" and "social contact" and a prolonged 18 hour fight kinda fucks with any or all of them.

Can you prove these people do, in fact, have lives? I've met plenty who were the most socically depraved people I had ever met. They'd slit their momma's throat for 5 gil, that is, if they weren't living in her basement completely unable to support themselves.

Go ahead and say the drops probably aren't worth it anyway, its the only thing missing from each little whine.

Bellona's Ring isn't worth an 18 hour fight, have you seen Jalzhan's Ring? You can get that for beating ToA. If you're a RNG and a COR, do you honestly think you need to sink time into fighting AV for Bellona's when you can just beat ToA and get Jalzhan's. Near-comprable stats and no stat penalties on Jalzhan's

Nintura's Sash doesn't mean much of anything to a MNK when they have BB. A

[Raydeus]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

/


Exactly what benefits do you get for being a Premier site? Last time I checked they didn't even bother answering the questions posted in the Ask SE section. <_<;

I mean it would be nice being at those events and spending time with the SE team, but as a non-profit site I would find it difficult to make the time/money commitment to keep up with that stuff.



Then again, maybe that's why this isn't a Premier site any more.

[Mhurron]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

See there's these things people have called "Job," "Car," "Signifigant Other," "children," "home," "sleep," "food," "activities" and "social contact" and a prolonged 18 hour fight kinda fucks with any or all of them.

There is a thing called free time that some people have more of then others. There's a thing called scheduling and another thing called vacation time that smart people are able to use to do things they would like to do that might take longer then their normal, daily free time. There are also strategies called cycling players in and out so that people might not have to say for 18 hours.

Or you could just get over yourself and realize that Absolute Virtue wasn't created for you.

[Balfree]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

So I guess the conclusion to the AV discussion is... it's not for everyone but its there for whoever wants to do it, just like everything else in the game.

Getting all jobs to 75.
Capping all crafts.
Getting full relics to multiple jobs.
Getting full relic weapons.
Killing every NM.

Some of the most common achievements people are working on, and they all require time, I don't see how this is so much of a big deal, not everyone will finish a relic weapon or get all jobs to 75 because they simply don't want to put out that much time and trouble to do it, I guess its the same with AV in the bitter end.

And ewwwwwwwww this has dragged on for too long, ._.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

I've met plenty who were the most socically depraved people I had ever met. They'd slit their momma's throat for 5 gil, that is, if they weren't living in her basement completely unable to support themselves.

[Lmnop]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Can I just say? To those of you who say "and some people will have those 18 hours or people will be able to work a way to come in shifts". I just ask: where do you draw the line?

I mentioned this "line" a few pages back. Some people don't want to devote 5 hours to a task. Some don't want to devote 10. Some don't want to devote 20. It's true, Mhurron could go on all day with his point that some people will be able to accommodate it. But constantly pushing the envelop isn't the answer. You want a 70 hour fight, next? You could rationalize that, too. But that doesn't make it good design.

Back to this line... WoW arguably does better because they drew the line at such a reasonable level. A lot of us enjoy how much more difficult FFXI is. I don't want EasyMode. But I hate those games where after 10 minutes of tedious work, if you miss a difficult jump, you have to start all over. Now imagine an unrecoverable wipe @hour 16.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

I just ask: where do you draw the line?

It depends largely on how the fight is designed. An NM which anyone can fight (think of that tree event), could easily stretch for weeks, or even indefinitely, without being insane. A limited area, with only 6 people (think BCNM)? Probably no more than 2 hours or so.

It depends on how challenging that time is, and if the mob changes. For example, a fight which is basically just whacking it for 18 hours until it dies is just a test of endurance and manpower. A fight which pushes players to their limits for 18 hours with little room for error is way too far on the 'insane' side. If the mob changes its moves, strategy, weaknesses, etc. then it's a step in the right direction.

It varies far too widely to draw a concrete line on anything.

[Raydeus]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Uh huh. XD

[Lmnop]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

For example, a fight which is basically just whacking it for 18 hours until it dies is just a test of endurance and manpower.

As long as we can agree that's not good game design...

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

As long as we can agree that's not good game design...

yep. But given that nobody HAS fought AV correctly, except the obviously not talking Dev Team, it's too early to say whether AV falls into that category.

[Ziero]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Can I just say? To those of you who say "and some people will have those 18 hours or people will be able to work a way to come in shifts". I just ask: where do you draw the line?

I mentioned this "line" a few pages back. Some people don't want to devote 5 hours to a task. Some don't want to devote 10. Some don't want to devote 20. It's true, Mhurron could go on all day with his point that some people will be able to accommodate it. But constantly pushing the envelop isn't the answer. You want a 70 hour fight, next? You could rationalize that, too. But that doesn't make it good design.

Back to this line... WoW arguably does better because they drew the line at such a reasonable level. A lot of us enjoy how much more difficult FFXI is. I don't want EasyMode. But I hate those games where after 10 minutes of tedious work, if you miss a difficult jump, you have to start all over. Now imagine an unrecoverable wipe @hour 16.

If people don't want to devote 5 hours to a task...they don't have to. Why is that even an issue, no one's forced to fight AV and as people have said already his drops "aren't that great". But for those that do want to fight him, he's there waiting, and probably laughing at all of us. But as far as I'm concerned, the "design flaw" with AV doesn't lie in the fact it's a 20 hour fight, it lies in the facts that he can wipe you and completely erase your progress in a manner of seconds and even if you do win, only 18 people will be able to show anything from it. That's the real shame in that even if you do spend 5 hours helping to take this thing down, if you're not there at the end, and in the alliance no less, then you won't even get a simple title trophy for it. That's what needs to be changed imo.

These massive, 20 hour fights, both occur in outdoor, easily accessible areas for a reason. It's so people can come and go as they please, no special warp items or member restrictions or time limits, just an open area with a big mob who's kicking everyone's ass. It's not a design flaw to have these grand, long running fights, it's a challenge to the playerbase to see how well they can work together.

It depends largely on how the fight is designed. An NM which anyone can fight (think of that tree event), could easily stretch for weeks, or even indefinitely, without being insane. A limited area, with only 6 people (think BCNM)? Probably no more than 2 hours or so.

It depends on how challenging that time is, and if the mob changes. For example, a fight which is basically just whacking it for 18 hours until it dies is just a test of endurance and manpower. A fight which pushes players to their limits for 18 hours with little room for error is way too far on the 'insane' side. If the mob changes its moves, strategy, weaknesses, etc. then it's a step in the right direction.

It varies far too widely to draw a concrete line on anything.

They actually did the "mob changes" idea with Pandemonium Warden, who is another of those 20 hour fights. However, unlike AV, where he can wipe you and erase all progress you made in a manner of seconds, PW's difficulty comes from the fact that people don't even know how to hurt him yet, or at least his true form anyway. But still, the idea is there and in use.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Ziero: Again, you're assuming that AV CAN do that; we just don't know if that actually is the case or not. Obviously in his default form, yes, but it's simply extremely unlikely, statistically speaking, to make it through a fight without him doing something that can easily wipe your group in that form. I would find it rather hard to believe that there isn't some trick to lessening or negating that.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

I acknowledge world-spanning kill events like the Twinkling Treants are acceptable to go on for those lengths of time but events where you're "swapping in" hundreds of people in order to achieve a kill against a loot-dropping raid mob is broken and ridiculously flawed design. Chaining members in raids in order to gain victories is an exploit other MMO's closed the loop on many moons ago, as usual S-E is painfully slow to react. Granted, zerging has always been predominant in Asian playstyles from my own experience in three seperate MMO's. Personally, I prefer to go in with a raid force of people I know and the encounter be a test of our skill levels not our ability to replace people who have died or ran out of mana. Maybe it's just me but I'd feel more of a sense of achievement that way rather than being replacement warm body #263.

[Mhurron]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Everyone else is not you. People find different things interesting. It is not a flawed design just because you don't like it or your current situation does not allow you to participate.

If you don't like the way AV has to be taken down, don't participate.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Of course it's fucking broken, if you can't see why that is the case no amount of logic is going to convince you to the contrary. It's a pathetic way to weaken the effective challenge of supposedly finely-tuned mobs. If they were meant to be killed by zergs then they wouldn't put loot on them or give them the ability to award a title to the lucky few who happened to be in the alliance for the last 1%. The perpetual paradox of FFXI, the game is full of people claiming it's the hardest MMO out there because of mobs like AV and yet they overlook such blatant exploits as chain-replacing members to beat encounters.