2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

I don't care what examples you gave,

Which I don't really care about. But read them again when you cool down some. It's rather embarrassing.

[Lmnop]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

This battle looks more like a huge event involving many people rather than just another battle, if the 18hour claim is true then I doubt SE expects you to do it on one sitting, it sounds like they expect people to do it in groups, one group goes in, fights for 2 hours or so, and another one replaces them after that, coming back tomorrow to check on things.

...And when it's all over, only 18 people get the title. Le Suck.

hi, welcome to every form of end game ever. I see you've already uncovered the root cause of most drama!

The motivation is there to continue camping kings because there are enough drops on the table. Lots of people can get stuff, and it can usually only take a 3 hour chunk. 3 hours in one sitting was already pushing the playerbase' collective ADHD (also known as "I have a life, you tools"). Sure, I've camped the same NM for 5 hours, before, but those things are A) hated by everyone ever and B) typically solo-able NMs that don't need killed 3 times/week.

For every minute over that 3 hour mark (that's my arbitrarily decided "line"), you risk angry players.

And 18 hours has us fucking pissed.

It's true that the ground NMs caused drama. But even if the LS leader's NIN gets a D ring and everyone thinks so-and-so main paladin should've got it, that Paladin could feasibly get another chance at D ring because, well, he's in BehemotDom every other day anyway.

K, now back to AV. They knew what kind of drama they had created. Instead of alleviating the problem, they made something 6x as bad.

And as for loot? "We killed him. We're never doing that again."

Ahh nothing like the knowledge to the other 40 people involved that not only did they help one person get their sash -- they'll have to find another shell for their next shot at it.

EDIT: To the Feba quote above, it's also worthy of note that all AU and beyond has reasonably accommodated all players involved. Even if you don't get an abjuration in Einherjar, you get lots of points to purchase gear from another list. Not to mention it's -- you know. Fun. No sitting around. No being cycled out. No arduous wait (hard-fast 30 minute limit and no time extensions is a beautiful thing).

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

lmnop: I get your point. But SE clearly didn't intend for AV (and arguably, even some of the NMs that ARE killed regularly) to be killed very often. I mean, look at the setup it takes just to spawn AV, or even Kirin.

AV might take much much longer to get everyone their "big prize", but the same applies to Dynamis. How many runs would an LS have to do, even with careful planning and coordination, to get everyone involved a relic weapon? Not to mention relic armor. Even ignoring the "Human" problems, like people swapping jobs, leaving and joining the LS, and such, merely the restrictions on how often it's possible, how many drops you can get, and so on would make it a huge endeavor.

I mean, hell, how many LS have really even done a single NM to the point where absolutely nobody in their shell needs an item for anything but sale? D. Ring and Ridill are great examples.

K, now back to AV. They knew what kind of drama they had created. Instead of alleviating the problem, they made something 6x as bad.

Now this I can completely understand. FFXI has far too many places where only one or two people benefit, and the rest are just working for them. I mean, heck, missions; how many times have you helped someone with a mission, and gotten nothing for it? And having a full 6 man group that's on the same mission isn't very common after a certain point. Obviously people should be rewarded for their efforts, but FFXI hasn't been built that way.

it's also worthy of note that all AU and beyond has reasonably accommodated all players involved. Even if you don't get an abjuration in Einherjar, you get lots of points to purchase gear from another list. Not to mention it's -- you know. Fun. No sitting around. No being cycled out. No arduous wait (hard-fast 30 minute limit and no time extensions is a beautiful thing).

Well, yes, obviously SE has been trying to make team play less of a "Everyone with good friends has a wonderful happy fairy magical land time, everyone else is fucked" affair, but I really doubt that they can fully do it without significantly restructuring FFXI.

[Malacite]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Am I the only one outraged by just how often SE disregards their own disclaimer and forgets that this is a game and not a second job?

[Ziero]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Asking for the "trick to it" is asking how to beat it. You're basically asking where the Glass Jaw is here, the lynchpin, the Achillis' Heel.

"Be sure to aim at his weak spot for MASSIVE DAMAGE."

Again, they did this with Odin. They flat out told people how to avoid his instant-death-to-everyone attack. And yet he's *still* kickin the crap outta people on a daily basis. And if SE can find it fair to ninja-buff AV after nerfing the only known (albeit highly explotative) method of actually winning, then they should also be able to throw the players a bone that doesn't leave us scratching our heads over a 5 minute video.

Tacking on more time doesn't make anything more challenging, it just artifically extends the existing difficulty. They could go make some things harder for all I care, just don't make them retardedly long ventures.

A marathon is more difficult to finish then a sprint. Why? Because of the time involved. Yes, extending the time it takes to defeat something adds to the challenge, it forces us to rethink strategies, gear and supply ourselves accordingly and pace ourselves so we don't burn out before the mob. The longer you go on the weaker you get and in the end the winner is the one who can lasts the longest...or who can insta cast Meteor then Benediction any lost HP.

This battle looks more like a huge event involving many people rather than just another battle, if the 18hour claim is true then I doubt SE expects you to do it on one sitting, it sounds like they expect people to do it in groups, one group goes in, fights for 2 hours or so, and another one replaces them after that, coming back tomorrow to check on things.

SE is thinking out of the box IMO but the players refuse to do so.

I actually dig the idea if this is the case, I doubt most linkshells are prepared to do something like that though, but its just another example of how SE pushes the boundaries.

One thing that was discussed on that video was the hours of the ingame day people were fighting on, and much confusion arised from that, but I wonder if that wasn't just SE trying to tell us that its better to fight it across multiple RL days other than treating it like other HNMs.

Too bad the rewards don't seem worth it though (arguably, but *glee* at Ninurta's Sash) , and I'd hate to be the guy that decides who gets what.

From my understanding, players have been doing the "fight in shifts" thing for a long time, even as far back as Kirin. Wasn't the first AV fight something like 20 hours? Cause I know the Pandemonium Warden was around the same amount of time with people coming and going through out the day. I don't think the time is as big a factor in this fight compared to the fact that he can wipe entire armies of players and then fully heal himself within a matter of seconds...instantly and repeatedly. Players can work in shifts and slowly wittle away at anything for extended amounts of time, but when he erases all progress made and then wipes your entire army, then all that time spent fighting will be wasted. And that's where the complaint comes from.

[BurningPanther]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Am I the only one outraged by just how often SE disregards their own disclaimer and forgets that this is a game and not a second job?

They should amend it, adding in:

"Buuut, if you want to get anywhere at all in this game, you'll forget everything we just warned you against in the above paragraph."
"Have a nice day. "

[Mhurron]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Am I the only one outraged by just how often SE disregards their own disclaimer and forgets that this is a game and not a second job?

No, but everyone who does forgets that:

A) not everyone gets to have everything
B) some people have this much free time

Just because they don't want you to forget you may have other things to do does not mean they can not make content for those that do not.

[Raydeus]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Even if that's true SE does go overboard with this kind of things.

Then again... this might be SE's way of punishing people stupid enough to sacrifice so much time to kill a NM that may or may not drop what they want, and then fight like dogs with the other 9 alliances to for it.

So my guess is SE just giving them a rope long enough so they can hang themselves.

[BurningPanther]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Even if that's true SE does go overboard with this kind of things.

Then again... this might be SE's way of punishing people stupid enough to sacrifice so much time to kill a NM that may or may not drop what they want, and then fight like dogs with the other 9 alliances to for it.

So my guess is SE just giving them a rope long enough so they can hang themselves.

I've always imagined that secretly, the devs created this game as a two-pronged social experiment:

1. Introducing a world based entirely around the spirit of communication, and observe how human beings really react to it, and

2. Including massive timesinks for extremely rare rewards, to observe the people who fall into the trap of throwing away their lives to obtain these virtual items.

[Raydeus]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Sometimes the only way to win a fight is to simply walk away.

[Lmnop]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Am I the only one outraged by just how often SE disregards their own disclaimer and forgets that this is a game and not a second job?

18 hours has us fucking pissed.

Feba, your argument is a good one, but it still stands that even dynamis only happens in chunks. Granted, I've stayed away from Dynamis because it tends to take 5 hour chunks out of one's schedules so I can't comment too much on it. (To be fair, a good deal of that time is assembly/planning).

18 hours is simply over the line and there's no excuse for it.

I was gonna say some more stuff about Dynamis but I just got really lazy. Ciao for now.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

18 hours isn't a measure of skill, it's a measure of endurance and, to a lesser degree, just how little value your life has.

[Mhurron]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Ah, you have to love it. Everyone who doesn't have time to do it decrying those who do as having no life.

Go ahead and say the drops probably aren't worth it anyway, its the only thing missing from each little whine.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Ah, you have to love it. Everyone who doesn't have time to do it decrying those who do as having no life.

Not necessarily a case of not having the time. It's more a case of measuring achievements in life with tangible rewards such as a family, a healthy lifestyle, your own home, a decent car, and the occasional luxury item. As opposed to being overweight, socially dysfunctional, living off welfare, eating unhealthy food, pumping 18 hours of your life a day into a game and trying to justify a collection of pixels, which can be rescinded by S-E at any point, as being a worthwhile reward for five years of your life.

Yes, that's the person's choice yada yada. Argue all you like for the individual's right to live the second lifestyle but any realistic and honest person is going to choose the former over the latter.

[Ziero]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Not necessarily a case of not having the time. It's more a case of measuring achievements in life with tangible rewards such as a family, a healthy lifestyle, your own home, a decent car, and the occasional luxury item. As opposed to being overweight, socially dysfunctional, living off welfare, eating unhealthy food, pumping 18 hours of your life a day into a game and trying to justify a collection of pixels, which can be rescinded by S-E at any point, as being a worthwhile reward for five years of your life.

Yes, that's the person's choice yada yada. Argue all you like for the individual's right to live the second lifestyle but any realistic and honest person is going to choose the former over the latter.

So a single fight that happens once every few weeks where people normally come and go during the middle of it suddenly means anyone involved with it spends 18 hours a day, every day, playing the game?

I spent most of sunday, a good 7 hours, on one fight in this game. You know what I did the next day? Nothing. Didn't even bother playing. And if I had a chance to beat AV, and had the free time to fight him, I'd stay there as long as I could. I'm not living on welfare or socially dysfunctional or overweight (though I do eat a lot of crap food, but that's cause it tastes good), but I'd still have no problem blowing a day fighting this guy...if we had a chance to win at least (hell, even if we didn't I'd prolly still stick around).

Fighting AV is an event, it's a massive undertaking that doesn't happen often. And this fight doesn't change the fact that the little disclaimer every time you log in is just as meaningful as it ever was. Just because you spend one day fighting a 20 hour fight doesn't mean you spend every day doing the same.