Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

[Ketaru]

Since I would hate to be the person who ruined a cheerful discussion about STDs, Feba's privates, or exploding lightbulbs, I thought it would be more appropriate to post a separate thread and see what other people think. The topic of the No Rails to Derail thread was somewhat going into the subject of superhero movies and this came up

I think I heard DC was probably going to reboot Superman too after the Superman: Returns mess...

That reminded me of something somebody wrote about Superman Returns's relative lack of critical praise that other movies like Batman Begins, Iron Man, or Spider Man tend to receive.

Superman is Dead and We Killed Him

The thought behind it is that Superman isn't met with as much praise as other movies because Superman is not gritty or "dark" enough and that fans today want antisocial antiheroes. Or even better, that Superman isn't looked at as seriously as other comic book superheroes is a sign of anti-Americanism. That we no longer believe in "the American way". My thoughts are a little more prosaic of course. It just wasn't a very good movie.

But Googling around a bit, it looks like this is actually an opinion shared by a lot of people- that audiences would rather have antiheroes (never mind that this term is being seriously misused. An antihero is somebody who does heroic things but for selfish reasons) rather than genuinely heroic figures.

[Durahansolo]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ent...-movies-2.html

I think I had an article in there saying something about how the superman reboot they were talking about would attempt to make superman into an "Angry God" type, which would make him an antihero type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superma...series)#Reboot it is somewhere in that paragraph.

Glad you posted this topic since I had forgotten all about mine .

[Solymir]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

I thought Superman Returns was a good movie, not great, but still good.

I understand the appeal of "dark" characters. I enjoy movies where the main character has to struggle with their issues. My problem is with giving Superman personal character flaws. Even his fellow heroes call him the big blue boy scout. Part of his legend/mystique is that he is representative of ultimate good. Thinking back to the end of Batman Begins when Batman while not directly killing Ra's al Ghul does nothing to save him, you couldn't or I guess the better word would be "shouldn't" allow Superman to do something like that in one of his movies. Sure you can tinker with things like red cryptonite changing his personality but in the end that is not Superman, that is Superman under an influence similar to Spider Man in the 3rd movie. There have been lots of instances in the comic books of doing different morality plays around his character, but I don't believe any of them were him making an immoral choice or one that would benefit him and do harm to someone else. If there were a story like that I can pretty much bet it wasn't well received by the faithful readers.

tldr version

Superman = Representative of all that is good and right please don't fuck with it just because dark characters are a winning movie format.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

I guess they don't read the comics, because Superman of the last several years has had his darker moments in the series. Most recently, Brainiac killed off Johnathan Kent. Clark was struggling on that one. Darkseid killed one of his best friends - Batman (well, more like banish him to some convoluted timetravel trap, but dead as far as the rest of the characters know).

And along sides the death of his father, Superman discovered Kandorian technology. Long story short, its technology to shrink a city to fit it inside a bottle either for protection. Its come up before, but one of the cites discovered was a city where 100,000 Kryptonians survived Brainiac had happened to collect the bottle they put the city into and had jettisoned away before the planet blew up, not unlike.

Superman's uncle and aunt are amoug the survivors, they're Supergirl's parents more or less. He restroes the city in Antarctica near his fortress and basically does what he can to help the Kryptonians. JLA is kinda worried over the matter. I mean, 100,000 Kryptonians under a Yellow Sun and they had just recently had to deal with General Zod and his two cronies again.

Well, Krytonians being Kryptonians and despite Kal's best efforts to help them adjust to earth. they end up killing some humans. Of course, Luthor is helping faciliate this behind the scenes They also accept Zod back into their society. Scored big points with earth. Feeling rejected by Earth, they use some technology to create a new Krypton and put it opposite the orbit of Earth.

Here's Clark's situation:

Earth still accepts him, seeing as he's saved humanity time and again. His human father is dead. His mother alive, his wife human. Bruce, his best friend, is dead. General Zod is back and manipulating his people to hate humans and be as racist as they had been on Krypton generations before.

What does he do?

There is no easy answer, so he leaves earth and tries to integrate into this new Kryptonian society and has become a lieutenant to Zod. He ain't sporting the red and blue these days.

So far, parts of the "New Krypton" story have been rolled into collections, but I don't think the arch is done yet. Its part of another big theme in DC this year. Their "Trinity" (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman) has been shattered. They can't be there for each other. Wonder Woman has to deal with Ares and his armies, I haven't read much of that, but then I don't really care for Wonder Woman.

Superman can be dark and still retain his moral center, you just have to have the correct writer for him. Frank Miller, though not the guy I'd go with for a new Superman movie, has proven he can make Clark pretty dark. Geoff Johns just does it properly.

There was that whole thing where, you know, Doomsday killed him. Tell me that doesn't affect you just a little bit. Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey explored Clark's fear of it happening again.

Supermain also failed to hold things together pre-Infinite Crisis. Something current chairman Black Canary was keen to remind him of before all the other problems for Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman started.

---------------

The problem the movie had was, well, probably that it was a continuation of the previous four movies rather than a reboot. They tried their best, but those moves are really old now and Christopher Reeve's Superman is a hard one to replace. When you can't replace a version of a character, you let someone come in and do their own version.

Worked like a charm for Star Trek just this year.

----------------

As to Superman and how he relates to the current American landscape. If the Regan/Superman thing were to hold true - and I think its a rather accurate assessment - then it won't be practical now. Because Obama is another Carter, in fact, he's starting to be a lot worse than a Carter. His administration still goes and points fingers at who used to be in charge.

Clinton never really did that. Then again, Clinton was liberal, but not THAT liberal. He actually had the sense to listen and adapt to the current political mood of the nation, something Obama and his fellow Democrats seem to have a hard time doing. So what superhero best represents a bunch of overgrown babies on a power trip that don't listen to their constituents, Americans aren't happy with and likely not going to re-elect in 2010? Obama's got two years to shape up, people in the House don't.

[fairyoracle75]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

I also think the problem was that they connected it to the earlier movies. For me the whole concept of Superman Returns just didn't get off of the ground, I always felt it was slightly amiss while watching it for a reason I couldn't put my finger on. Maybe it was because they were trying to make Superman into a tragic figure. They broke up the wonderful Lois and Clark dynamic that Superman 1 and 2 did yet attempted to say it was connected to them. Honestly I think the only good/enjoyable Superman movies to me were the first 2 and I ignore from 3 on.

I also think that as BBQ says the recent story archs prove you can have Superman darker by making him face doing/accepting things which conflict with his core values. This is a struggle, different from the antihero one but still a struggle, that I find enjoyable. To me the break up of the Trinty and its affect on Superman was interesting because of the struggles it presented to him.

To me Smallville's success has been because its doing just that. Its throwing everything but the kitchen sink at him which causes Clark to struggle with maintaining his morality. Others around Superman are creating the darkness and the way he chooses to deal with issues by taking the moral highground have consequences that aren't always good. In their take on the DC character his choices have led to the death of Johnathon Kent and Jimmy Olsen and that fact weighs heavy on him and makes him question whether he belongs on the Earth and should protect humans.

I think Smallville shows that a modern audience can still relate to and enjoy Superman if its done right even if they've never picked up a comic.

[Durahansolo]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

I think Smallville shows that a modern audience can still relate to and enjoy Superman if its done right even if they've never picked up a comic.

I watch Smallville as well. I can honestly say that I've been watching it from season 3 up until now and they've used almost every possible color of kryptontie that can be used . I also agree that they've been throwing a bunch of bricks at him in order to test his mettle, but man he's had quite a few rocks thrown at him the past three seasons...

Smallville Spoilerz

Poor Jimmy!!! Damn! I'm still sad about that to this day.

I also used to watch Lois and Clark back when it was coming on, and I own 3/4 seasons on DVD.

I'd hate to see Superman really pissed off...No, I mean Incredible Hulk level of pissed! He'd be like Mr. Manhattan in Watchmen O_o.

[Ketaru]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

I thought Superman Returns was a good movie, not great, but still good.

I understand the appeal of "dark" characters. I enjoy movies where the main character has to struggle with their issues. My problem is with giving Superman personal character flaws. Even his fellow heroes call him the big blue boy scout. Part of his legend/mystique is that he is representative of ultimate good. Thinking back to the end of Batman Begins when Batman while not directly killing Ra's al Ghul does nothing to save him, you couldn't or I guess the better word would be "shouldn't" allow Superman to do something like that in one of his movies. Sure you can tinker with things like red cryptonite changing his personality but in the end that is not Superman, that is Superman under an influence similar to Spider Man in the 3rd movie. There have been lots of instances in the comic books of doing different morality plays around his character, but I don't believe any of them were him making an immoral choice or one that would benefit him and do harm to someone else. If there were a story like that I can pretty much bet it wasn't well received by the faithful readers.

tldr version

Superman = Representative of all that is good and right please don't fuck with it just because dark characters are a winning movie format.

It's not that I think Superman Returns is a "bad" movie. Me and my friends thought it was exhilarating when he saved the airplane. And I especially loved it when Superman delivered that little coda at the end of the scene. Some people go over the top though when they talk about how "darkness" is just what's in right now and I think "dark' is inappropriately used.

The little piece I linked to goes over the top and I asked, when did Bruce Wayne ever rip the spine out of anybody the way the writer seems to suggest? Spider Man wasn't "dark". It just had Peter Parker coping with how his secret life intersects with a more recognizable civilian life. Iron Man wasn't dark. It was just very contemporary, with direct references to the war. The world in Superman Returns seems to be one where there is no poverty, there is no war, there is no distrust of high authorities. Metropolis is the MTV version of Manhattan. So not only is the main character fundamentally alien, but we can't even relate to the world that he lives in. In such a world, villains just won't be interesting and we're left with Lex Luthor's cartoony scheme of building a continent out of cryptonite.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

There's something Lex Luthor said about Superman a couple years back that's pretty much rings true:

"Everything being equal, Superman always wins - so you have to take him out of his game."

Superman is a character that needs to be emotionally compromised because there's so little that can kill him other than Kryptonite and magic (OK, and Doomsday). He's not the kind of guy to fall into a serious depression like we saw in Superman Returns.

Though that was his character in the Kingdom Come series, he withdrew from humanity in a different way once he realized the world no longer shared his values. He withdrew to his fortress and doesn't come out and starts to lose touch with his humanity. The world he faces in KC is somewhat Marvel-esque. These heroes kill and don't care who who gets caught in the crossfire.

And when he comes out of retirement to try to help make things right again in the world, he makes a lot of mistakes because he lets his sense of justice get in the way of his own humanity. It gets quite dark. Its a great read and you can still find it in paperback some places.

[Ketaru]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

I haven't read "Kingdom Come", stopped reading comics a while ago, and even then, I wasn't much of a devoted reader. But that sounds like a good read, and yes, that would sound like a good basis for a good, present day Superman movie.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

I haven't read "Kingdom Come", stopped reading comics a while ago, and even then, I wasn't much of a devoted reader. But that sounds like a good read, and yes, that would sound like a good basis for a good, present day Superman movie.

Its a very good read and while it come out about twelve years ago, still going back through it and reading it is very enjoyable for me. Alex Ross' watercolor/pencil style and Mark Waid's writing were the perfect pairing for the tale. DC seems to also like to keep it in print, so check around your local comics store or places like Boarders for a copy.

It was a four issue miniseries it was eventually rolled into a full volume. There have since been spin-offs for it, but KC can be taken as a standalone work. Every DC hero you can think of will be in it, too.

In DC multiverse terms, its not really cannon and the events of KC fall under Earth-22 and not our canonical Superman's Earth. Then again, in a multiverse, everything is canon.

[Durahansolo]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

Justice League: Mortal (2011) <<<<!

I think I'd really rather see a Superman/Batman movie but that's just me. At least the majority of the people in the Avengers movie will have already had their movies by the time the movie comes out. If this movie is still coming out in 2011 then DC has some work to do IMO...

[AutonomousMarkings]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

well, theres supposed to be a new capt. america movie in the works, part of the whole avengers movie build up. If we did indeed kill superman, whats to stop us from taking out ol' steve rogers? Its reception will be interesting to see. Will this capt be the original capt from the marvel universe or will it be the ultimate's capt? The ultimate's capt is a little racist from what I hear, but that whole ultimates thing is supposed to make the dated marvel characters imperfect and more relate-able by todays standards.

[Durahansolo]

Re: Superman Returns and other Superhero movies

well, theres supposed to be a new capt. america movie in the works, part of the whole avengers movie build up.

I'm still wondering who all is actually going to be in the Avengers team. I think for sure we have Nick Fury, Black Widow, Captain America, Thor, Incredible Hulk, and Iron Man. According to IMDB also War Machine... (IMDB doesn't list Black Widow or Captain America (I don't even know if they've casted a Captain America yet.)) So it may just be those six/seven. We'll probably see more hints to the Avengers movie when Thor, Iron Man 2, and Captain America come out.