FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

[Yellow Mage]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

I think they must have confused us with Bard.

This would totally explain that whole Fencer thing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

The best of RDM's enhancing spells are self-target only. And now, seeing as it is become more and more of a waste to enhance the RDM itself, maybe it's time we start getting equivalents of our spells that can be cast on others. How about taking the Enspell II line and instead making it a non-self-target version instead of the pointless -resistance effect it has now, for instance?

Wouldn't subbing SCH get you the ability to cast most of those buffs on other people for a time? Or are RDMs still using the inability to use Sublimation as a scapegoat not to sub SCH, even though they have access to Refresh, Refresh II, Convert and Atmas?

Or maybe we should be the ones who can cast our Gain spells on others. I just checked how much my Gain-MND gives me today with all of my MND gear. That's +15 MND I got. People pay good money to have +15 of an attribute from gear.

SCH and BRD can cast attribute buffs on others.

They don't because its not worth the casting time/cost of the spell, mostly because melees/tanks and fellow mages have attribute buffs more than handled with food and gear. I'd assume that's just as much the case today as back when I stopped playing.

[Ketaru]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Wouldn't subbing SCH get you the ability to cast most of those buffs on other people for a time?

Benefits vs Costs, etc.

I could go ahead and give the 2 or 3 melee in the party Enspells if I didn't mind them losing out on Stoneskin or something else arguably more useful. Also a barspell that is less useful than WHMs equivalent. In the end, I'm still left with a whole bunch of self-target spells that have slowly, but surely become a punchline about the job. Now, if I want to cast them on myself, suddenly the whole "Go with this or that?" thing is no longer an issue.

SCH and BRD can cast attribute buffs on others.

They don't because its not worth the casting time/cost of the spell, mostly because melees/tanks and fellow mages have attribute buffs more than handled with food and gear. I'd assume that's just as much the case today as back when I stopped playing.

First of all, our Gain-Attributes spells cannot be given to others, even with the help of SCH job abilities. WHM has an equivalent that can without an additional ability.

Second, there's absolutely no reason attribute buffs from outside sources need conflict with buffs from food and gear. To my knowledge, the new Gain spells (and their WHM equivalents that are Area of Effect) stack with SCH's weather attributes. Personally, on SCH, I still use the weather spells for the attributes they provide to others. Whether people know what's going on or the THF thinks I'm just randomly casting Thunderstorm on him is no failing of mine. But unless the weather spell are taking up some valuable buff spot for a better effect (and they don't, there is no equivalent to having a weather condition applied right now), there's no reason not to cast it.

But on that line of thought then, I might as well bring up another point of contention. The fact that even if I wanted to cast Enspells on other people, people cannot reap the benefits of both Enspells and Auspice or Sambas at the same time.

[cidbahamut]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Wouldn't subbing SCH get you the ability to cast most of those buffs on other people for a time?

Only a few of them, since they've limited the list of spells accession actually works with to not include Haste or any of the new buffs we got after 75.

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Wouldn't subbing SCH get you the ability to cast most of those buffs on other people for a time? Or are RDMs still using the inability to use Sublimation as a scapegoat not to sub SCH, even though they have access to Refresh, Refresh II, Convert and Atmas?

Horrible RDMs like to whine.

I don't know about RDM/SCH but on WHM, I find myself regularly casting AoE Stoneskin, the 350 HP Damage bubble (450 with the right macro items) is ridiculously useful in non-Abyssea events but a bit situational for Abyssea evants due to the facts that the mobs will usually eat through that in 1-2 hits, and most of the NMs just laugh at stoneskin on the tank. I suppose it is useful for protecting melee classes from horrible AoE but since AoE also wipes shadows and most NMs hit for significantly more than 450 in AoE (same with magic attacks, even with maxed out Barspell and Shellra V merits). Accession is very useful coupled with -na spells though.

To sum up: Unless there is a justifiable reason for melee classes to feed TP to NMs, accession is only really useful for -na spells. Also, I want Stoneskin II badly. Though knowing Squeenix they will give it to the RDMs, with the average one being to horrible to realise that they are pretty gimped without access to /SCH.

And why would a RDM want to Sublimation with Refresh II? Sublimation at 90 gives back 7MP per 2HP as a main and 3MP per 2HP as a sub. Refresh is always ticking while Sublimation has a 30 second cooldown if used. Bad RDMs also need to remember that you need to be using Sublimation once every 2 and a half minutes for it's performance to match Convert. If someone has 3 Refresh Atma and they're burning through your entire MP supply in Aby in 10 mins (unless it's an NM fight, in which case, why didn't they buy temporary items?), they have problems far greater than ill perceived class balance

Summing up again: Accession is situational in Abyssea, even when combined with the universally useful Stoneskin due to melee classes feeding TP to Abyssea NMs. Bad RDMs are bad RDMs and will whine about anything. Good RDMs will know that while the RDM is under performing, the class is in nowhere near as bad a state as say Paladin, Dark Knight (though DRKS are great for Healing Magic skill ups so have some use) or Ranger, and really only needs a couple of buffs to put them on par with other mages, without making the class as OP as Post ToAU RDMs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

And why would a RDM want to Sublimation with Refresh II?

They wanted it when Refresh, Convert and Saction/Sigil buffs were more than enough at the time, so dumb ones would want it with Refresh II and Atmas.

Moar is bettar, basically.

Second, there's absolutely no reason attribute buffs from outside sources need conflict with buffs from food and gear. To my knowledge, the new Gain spells (and their WHM equivalents that are Area of Effect) stack with SCH's weather attributes. Personally, on SCH, I still use the weather spells for the attributes they provide to others. Whether people know what's going on or the THF thinks I'm just randomly casting Thunderstorm on him is no failing of mine. But unless the weather spell are taking up some valuable buff spot for a better effect (and they don't, there is no equivalent to having a weather condition applied right now), there's no reason not to cast it.

If SCH has the time/MP to do so, there's not really a problem, but given you're only buffing for weaponskill element/attribute or for spellcasting its still better to focus on general tasks when things are hectic. Because that THF is likely not to notice at all and still pat himself on the back for the damage he thought he did all by himself.

Though its not been totally strange for me to get much appreciation from parties for noticing the little details and tweaking with weather spells, but I figured that was partly because SCH was still fairly new at the time and I was among the first real wave of SCHs to 75 back then (not counting those maniacs that pushed the job to 75 in days rather than taking some time with it).

[cidbahamut]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

I don't know about RDM/SCH

I'll speak for the other half then, since I enjoy /SCH quite a bit.

Accession is a handy tool to have, but it suffers from a restrictive list of compatible spells. Mostly I'll use it for pro/shell and -na spells when applicable. As mentioned, Stoneskin is considerably less useful in Abyssea but it's still worth putting up there when you can just so the party has a slight buffer. It's cost-effective and lasts five minutes so when you're full on stratagems you might as well. I don't find myself using it with Phalanx very often unless there's actually a designated non-evasion tank, so while it's a nice thing to have it generally isn't worth burning a stratagem on. One odd thing that I have taken to handing out with Accession is Aquaveil. I don't see anyone ever casting it, but I see plenty of people taking hate and having stoneskin go down and get interrupted. Also: handy for Ninjas recasting Shadows. Not exactly the most common thing to use, I know, but it has its niche use depending on the party setup.

More than Accession, I find myself using the other stratagems. Stuff like tossing on Celerity before casting Raise is pretty handy(although if the person had reraise on it usually just means you wasted a stratagem). Addendum: White is handy to be able to switch into, but unless we're short on healers I don't full-time it, so it's often wise to keep a stratagem in reserve if possible. Alacrity is pretty damn useful for fights like Ironclad Executioner, where you don't really want to deal with the NM getting close enough to hit you but you don't want to just tickle it with tier II nukes all night long.

Oh yes, and casting spells in the correct arts is just super sexy. 10% more efficient and 10% faster is just a lot of fun. I'm all about the Fast Cast, so pushing the envelope on that front is really appealing for me.

I don't do it very often and it's hardly necessary, but you can actually make use of Sublimation as a Red Mage. It's just very niche. Store full sublimation charge before a fight starts and then burn through that before you start up your Refresh. It's a practically negligible advantage since it's only used once, but if you've got the prep time for it you may as well make use of it. If nothing else it can be a quick boost back to full after you finish applying your full set of buffs before you head out to do whatever.

All that aside, let's be honest. Even the good RDMs will complain from time to time. There's something very wrong with the metagame when I'm asked to come DRG to stand around picking my nose rather than on RDM.

[Malacite]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Enspell II's also can't proc on the extra swings of multi-hit weapons, Sambas & Added Effects can.


Maybe if RDM got a 3rd tier of Enspells (which would be cool) that are all AoE, then that might help idk. It doesn't seem terribly likely, and even if they do get it one set of good enhancing spells doesn't justify their piss-poor wording. Like Cid said, it sounded a helluva lot more like BRD to me.


Also I personally find RDM/SCH to be more trouble than it's worth when doing anything other than strictly healing. As a RDM I'm frequently jumping between White & Black magic, so the timers on Light Arts & Dark Arts tend to really screw with my spellcasting.

[cidbahamut]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Also I personally find RDM/SCH to be more trouble than it's worth when doing anything other than strictly healing.

Embrace the sexy book you filthy heathen.

Arts should not be giving you too much trouble unless you're doing silly things like switching arts for stuff like Blind. The recast timers are low enough that it isn't really a huge issue unless you make it one for yourself.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Bad RDMs are bad RDMs and will whine about anything. Good RDMs will know that while the RDM is under performing, the class is in nowhere near as bad a state as say Paladin, Dark Knight (though DRKS are great for Healing Magic skill ups so have some use) or Ranger, and really only needs a couple of buffs to put them on par with other mages, without making the class as OP as Post ToAU RDMs.

In stark contrast to S-E's vision, White Mages are better at party support/buffing than Red Mages are (hi2u AoEs of everything Red Mage has, without needing Acession for all of them).

On average, White Mages have better melee capabilities than Red Mages do.

It should go without saying that White Mages are the better healers.

What does all that leave Red Mage? Enfeebling? Awesome, can't wait until everybody wants what a Red Mage can provide over a White Mage in that department.

Nuking? I suppose if we have time, or if there's a Magic Burst; it's not like White Mages totally lack nuking capabilities with an appropriately-geared Solace-charged Holy, either.

Um . . . Archery? Because I've quite frankly run out of everything else here! Surely people must then play Red Mage over White Mage to be some kind of Arcane Archer! Yep, I've got nothing.

When it feels like one class is almost strictly superior to the other . . .

Not to say I don't feel sorry for Paladins. They have multiple classes that are almost strictly superior to them, barring something stupid like Ochain. Of course, Empyreans shouldn't be the rule, but the exception, otherwise I'd have mentioned that a Red Mage with that stupid blue Sword Airplane Wing could reliably out-do a White Mage in melee . . .

[Ketaru]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

In stark contrast to S-E's vision, White Mages are better at party support/buffing than Red Mages are (hi2u AoEs of everything Red Mage has, without needing Acession for all of them).

On average, White Mages have better melee capabilities than Red Mages do.

It should go without saying that White Mages are the better healers.

What does all that leave Red Mage? Enfeebling? Awesome, can't wait until everybody wants what a Red Mage can provide over a White Mage in that department.

Nuking? I suppose if we have time, or if there's a Magic Burst; it's not like White Mages totally lack nuking capabilities with an appropriately-geared Solace-charged Holy, either.

Um . . . Archery? Because I've quite frankly run out of everything else here! Surely people must then play Red Mage over White Mage to be some kind of Arcane Archer! Yep, I've got nothing.

When it feels like one class is almost strictly superior to the other . . .

Not to say I don't feel sorry for Paladins. They have multiple classes that are almost strictly superior to them, barring something stupid like Ochain. Of course, Empyreans shouldn't be the rule, but the exception, otherwise I'd have mentioned that a Red Mage with that stupid blue Sword Airplane Wing could reliably out-do a White Mage in melee . . .

That is, quite frankly, a lot of rage for what has essentially been codified in writing that RDM is no longer intended to be good at melee.

The new problem we're facing, once again, is that the job is still not what they say it is. Enfeebling, I'd say we're Ok, so long as they follow through with the plan and at least provide us with "Cost-of-living-adjustment" enfeebles. A good group knows that those enfeebles actually help for the tough fights.

The problem is, the way Abyssea is structured, it has become such that every job can make a contribution. But the rewards are scarce so it has become about whose contribution can be passed over in favor of another job. If you have both a RDM and WHM, no doubt, those enfeebles will make things easier on the WHM. But in the end, that RDM is still another mouth that needs to be fed, so why not just take him out of the equation and make the WHM haul more ass?

I argued that we're not the enhancers that the FFXI paints us to be either. Actually, I'd say, through gear, we "technically" have the more efficient Haste to cast, because ours will last longer through gear effects. And we have Refresh and Phalanx II (once again...if you merit it) and that's about it.

All of our best Enhancing magics are still self-target. Which, in a way, is a tragedy all on its own. The job never got its chance to be a frontline unit the way it was originally sold as. And yet here we have spells that currently add approximately 28-35 damage per swing of your attack round, which you would "think" would be a huge boon when you could potentially be swinging 5 times in an attack round. Not to mention we're probably about to get a spell that may end up adding as much as 20 DEX. How much money would real damage dealers pay to have that on gear? Without the ability to cast them on other people, they have just ended up being a waste.

But hey, YellowMage, I'll toss you a bone and admit I made a mistake in the Game Balance thread. We got put on a lot more damage dealing gear than I thought, looking through the list of Abyssea loot that's actually available.










Oh, and Missile Boots

Who's absolutely stoked to run out and get these? Especially them Heafoc Mitts. -DEX and -Acc for multi-hit crit weaponskills? PRO!

All that aside, let's be honest. Even the good RDMs will complain from time to time. There's something very wrong with the metagame when I'm asked to come DRG to stand around picking my nose rather than on RDM.

You never know. It might be Impulse Drive this time.

[Raydeus]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

This is what I would like to see for Enspell III

Spellblade (6 elements)

- Reduces Magic damage taken for element weak to the current spellblade used.*
- Absorbs magic of the same element and converts a % of damage absorbed to MP.**
- Converts Physical damage to magical damage (think Burning Blade effect, Cyclone, etc.) based mainly on weapon dmg and enhancing skill. With M.acc/damage bonuses affected by magic att, int, and elemental skill.***




Not like I'm expecting anything this good to ever happen mind you. But a humetaru can dream.




* Phalanx-ish effect based on enhancing skill. Say you are using Thunder Blade and you get hit with a Water based attack. If it was going to hit you for 400 Thunder Blade could negate 200-300+ damage from the attack.

** Same effect as before, but you are getting hit by a Thunder based attack this time. You would both get the same dmg reduction as with the previous example while also getting say 10-20% of the damage absorbed as MP. So with 200-300 dmg absorbed you could get maybe 20-60 MP back using the previous example.

*** You'd still need the acc/skill to hit your target, but str and att would be replaced by int and m. att while using Spellblade, and damage would be 100% magical.



PS > Bonus points if you needed to complete quests (or maybe trials) given to you by Kam'lanaut himself in order to learn these spells.

[cidbahamut]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

You never know. It might be Impulse Drive this time.

No it won't, and I don't have that unlocked yet anyway.

[Armando]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

- Converts Physical damage to magical damage (think Burning Blade effect, Cyclone, etc.) based mainly on weapon dmg and enhancing skill. With M.acc/damage bonuses affected by magic att, int, and elemental skill.***

Don't you mean Tachi/Blade elemental WS and Flaming Arrow? All other elemental WS pre-75 including Burning/Shining Blade, Thunder Thrust, Frostbite, Wind Slash, etc are purely magical.

EDIT: Disregard, I see what you're trying to say now. You want the spell to completely replace the melee damage from swings with magical damage.

[BurningPanther]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

I see what you're trying to say now. You want the spell to completely replace the melee damage from swings with magical damage.

That's something I've always hoped to see. Instead of trying to juggle magical and melee gear, offer a spell that utilizes the magical gear in place of the melee... for the benefit of melee. A spellblade effect relying on MAcc/Enhancing skill, and gearing for such, for instance, rather than worrying about Acc and Atk gear (except for during Weapon Skills).

And Haste gear, since there's rarely a time Haste gear is a bad idea.