FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

[Taskmage]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

That would be incredible. Do want.

[Malacite]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

So basically you're asking Enspell 3's function like a Mystic Knight's spellblade >_>

The one job I've been begging for since I first saw XI.

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

In stark contrast to S-E's vision, White Mages are better at party support/buffing than Red Mages are (hi2u AoEs of everything Red Mage has, without needing Acession for all of them).

On average, White Mages have better melee capabilities than Red Mages do.

It should go without saying that White Mages are the better healers.

What does all that leave Red Mage? Enfeebling? Awesome, can't wait until everybody wants what a Red Mage can provide over a White Mage in that department.

Nuking? I suppose if we have time, or if there's a Magic Burst; it's not like White Mages totally lack nuking capabilities with an appropriately-geared Solace-charged Holy, either.

Um . . . Archery? Because I've quite frankly run out of everything else here! Surely people must then play Red Mage over White Mage to be some kind of Arcane Archer! Yep, I've got nothing.

When it feels like one class is almost strictly superior to the other . . .

Not to say I don't feel sorry for Paladins. They have multiple classes that are almost strictly superior to them, barring something stupid like Ochain. Of course, Empyreans shouldn't be the rule, but the exception, otherwise I'd have mentioned that a Red Mage with that stupid blue Sword Airplane Wing could reliably out-do a White Mage in melee . . .

I try to ignore attempts at trolling but I'll bite.

Not really, WHMs only have AoE Barspells and AoE Protect/Shell. All other buffs have to either be made AoE with Accession or simply can't. Both myself and cidbahamut have shown why Accession really isn't that big a deal in Abyssea. And since when did WHM have Phalanx and Refresh natively? And since when did they get AoE Refresh/Phalanx natively?

While WHMs have better melee capabilities and arguably always have on paper, in practise they have access to nowhere near the kind of gear a RDM can equip for melee. With the exception of the Reverend Mail (which is trumped by the Royal Redingote anyway due to WS mods), anything a melee WHM can equip, a RDM can. I'm not saying the WHM is worse than the RDM in melee but it would be naive to think that the average WHM you meet would have anything near the gear required for a WHM to go melee DD.

Being a healing specialist I would expect to be able to outheal a RDM and SCH.

Enfeebling has never been a WHM's speciality. WHM's ONLY have access to Paralyze and Slow natively but good luck getting them to stick with anywhere NEAR the regularity a RDM's enfeebs can stick for. WHMs have Repose which is nice but since there's plenty of other classes that can sleep, it's not really anything special. Healers NEED crowd control abilities for survival and Repose is really the only CC ability WHMs have that is worth a damn. Sure there's Stun from /BLM but BLUs, RDMs, DRKs, PLDs and anyone who can equip a sword or club all stun better.

Blizzard IV hits for 4k comfortably. Holy Magic Bursts for about 3k max, THEN Solace needs recharging, then the WHM has to wait for an accidental Light SC. Sorry but if you can't deal more then 3k magic damage I nthe time it takes for a WHM to recap the Holy charge on Solace then maybe you are doing something badly wrong. WHMs can put out respectable damage with Divine Magic but it's nothing near what specialist nukers, SCHs or even RDMs can output.

Archery? Don't be silly, everyone knows that taking out a Short Bow and Wooden Arrows gives you the best DPS of all pew pew pew classes in the latest 40 man raid!1one

[cidbahamut]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Sorry Firewind, I'm going to nitpick.

You left out Boost spells from your list. We can debate how useful they may or may not be, but they're another AoE to your arsenal that RDM only has a single target version of, and self-only at that.

No one AoEs Refresh because it'd make more sense to just maintain a Refresh II cycle. The point still stands though, that Accession is considerably less useful inside Abyssea as far as applying buffs are concerned simply due to the nature of Abyssea.

Light based sleep is pretty darned useful, as there's plenty of mobs that resist dark based sleep like crazy, although the addition of Break has made that less of an issue recently.

I wish my Blizzard IVs were hitting for 4k I need to work on my nuking set.

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

The reason why I left out Boost Spells is because I've not really read enough on them to know if they're worth it or not inside Abyssea. outside of Abyssea, I could see Boost MND being useful for Enfeebs but since mobs outside Abyssea are usually no Higher then 80, it's debatable as to if the MND boost will make a difference. Still thanks for pointing it out since the context of the post WAS AoE spells that WHMs have natively that RDMs don't have natively.

My point about Light Based Sleep is that it is not unique to WHM as BRD and COR have it. I think BLUs also have it though I'm not sure on that. I said it's "not special" because it's "not unique". Crowd Control is general is universally helpful. I should have been more clear there so thanks for pointing that out.

RDMs in proper nuking gear can hit like a ton of bricks, it's just your average PUG RDM won't have the gear or even capped Elemental Skill for it; your standard horrible RDM who bitches about everything probably won't even have that. I've seen some horrible RDMs still full timing (or at least idling in) full AF at 90, while moaning that SCHs and BLMs are outnuking them...

[Taskmage]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

I really wish people wouldn't characterize the job by the worst people playing it.

I primarily see Boost-AGI used in conjunction with Auspice to enhance subtle blow. I kept Gain-MND on full-time as rdm, naturally, but since whm only has the lower tier enfeebles and probably has enough MND pre-boost to cap potency for them, it probably isn't worth casting for you.

[Murphie]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

If we didn't categorize the job by the worst possible examples then we couldn't feel superior to anyone.

[cidbahamut]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

I think BLUs also have it though I'm not sure on that.

I think they actually get multiple light-based sleeps. AoE sleeps even.

RDMs in proper nuking gear can hit like a ton of bricks,

Agreed. I just think 4k isn't exactly base-line performance for Red Mage. I consider my nuking set to be somewhere between mediocre and somewhat above average and my Blizzard IVs are doing around 2-2.5k.
MM, Beyond, http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=189566
That's not exactly PUG level of terrible, but there also isn't a select one or two pieces that are suddenly going to rocket me up to 4,000 damage. Well maybe atma of the Ultimate, but nothing gearwise is going to add that level of damage. If there's something I'm overlooking here, please don't hesitate to let me know because I really do enjoy nuking and would like to improve my setup.

I've seen some horrible RDMs still full timing (or at least idling in) full AF at 90, while moaning that SCHs and BLMs are outnuking them...

These people should be skinned alive. Or at least have their pimp hats taken away.

[Taskmage]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

I think they actually get multiple light-based sleeps. AoE sleeps even.

Sheep Song and Yawn. The first is radial AoE around caster, the second is conal gaze. Both are first tier sleeps, overwritten by Sleep II.

[Ketaru]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

The reason why I left out Boost Spells is because I've not really read enough on them to know if they're worth it or not inside Abyssea. outside of Abyssea, I could see Boost MND being useful for Enfeebs but since mobs outside Abyssea are usually no Higher then 80, it's debatable as to if the MND boost will make a difference. Still thanks for pointing it out since the context of the post WAS AoE spells that WHMs have natively that RDMs don't have natively.

Well, of course, mileage may vary and I don't know if perhaps Boost spells are less potent than Gain (like you, I haven't really read much about them) if only because of WHM's lower Enhancing magic skill alone, though that is somewhat lessened by a /SCH subjob. For now, only VIT, MND, VIT, and CHR are available too. Not exactly all that useful to most jobs. But STR, INT, and DEX are going to be made available eventually.

My experience is that I casted Gain-MND and got +15 MND out of it. I'm looking at that in the context that this is practically wearing 2 more MND rings and I think that's awesome. Pitted against the kind of buffs you get from Abyssea, maybe that's nothing. But with that mindset, why even bother getting gear in Abyssea? And, unlike SCH's weathers under Stormsurge, that number is only going to keep going up.

RDMs in proper nuking gear can hit like a ton of bricks, it's just your average PUG RDM won't have the gear or even capped Elemental Skill for it; your standard horrible RDM who bitches about everything probably won't even have that. I've seen some horrible RDMs still full timing (or at least idling in) full AF at 90, while moaning that SCHs and BLMs are outnuking them...

Well, part of that is that Abyssea is making all these possible. RDM can rapid fire nukes because nearly infinite MP makes it possible, as well as various atma that you can choose to equip is nuking is really your thing. It's just like any discussion of melee where you can choose to outdamage other damage dealers by equipping various atma and you will beat out others on damage because that just the kind of place Abyssea is, where your accomplishments in Abyssea matter far more than what your current class is. Your job can exploit Razed Ruins? You're going to outdamage a job that can't (or a player that has not).

That whole dynamic is going to change outside, where nobody is going to have infinite MP any longer. Job hierarchies are likely going to shift back to the ways they were prior to Abyssea. I can still see WHM, for example, being considered the premium healer. But they are going to be far more reliant on RDMs and BRDs, instead of being functional without them. PLD will once again be the go-to tank job.

In a way, Voidwatch is taking a hint from Abyssea that people are not going to stand for once again having to form whole alliances all for the purposes of getting 1 or 2 people gear. Now, everybody has a shot of acquiring loot. In some ways, that's good because a select few really shouldn't be the only people that benefit from the whole effort. And, more related to this discussion, it will do you no good to only take a few jobs that have essential functions just because you don't want more mouths to feed. In others, it's not so good because you cannot always defer gear to another person that you feel may be able to use it better (how about a dedicated meleer getting a Strendu Ring and the BLM getting a Gold Ingot?)

I really wish people wouldn't characterize the job by the worst people playing it.

"Hey, you know, I would totally invite a BST. But they all wear CHR gear!"

[Malacite]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

In a way, Voidwatch is taking a hint from Abyssea that people are not going to stand for once again having to form whole alliances all for the purposes of getting 1 or 2 people gear. Now, everybody has a shot of acquiring loot. In some ways, that's good because a select few really shouldn't be the only people that benefit from the whole effort. And, more related to this discussion, it will do you no good to only take a few jobs that have essential functions just because you don't want more mouths to feed. In others, it's not so good because you cannot always defer gear to another person that you feel may be able to use it better (how about a dedicated meleer getting a Strendu Ring and the BLM getting a Gold Ingot?)

Except for the whole part of SE's colossal fuck up of not allowing you to put casket rewards into the treasure pool. Other than that, yes.

[Ketaru]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Except for the whole part of SE's colossal fuck up of not allowing you to put casket rewards into the treasure pool. Other than that, yes.

Sigh...

In a way, Voidwatch is taking a hint from Abyssea that people are not going to stand for once again having to form whole alliances all for the purposes of getting 1 or 2 people gear. Now, everybody has a shot of acquiring loot. In some ways, that's good because a select few really shouldn't be the only people that benefit from the whole effort. And, more related to this discussion, it will do you no good to only take a few jobs that have essential functions just because you don't want more mouths to feed. In others, it's not so good because you cannot always defer gear to another person that you feel may be able to use it better (how about a dedicated meleer getting a Strendu Ring and the BLM getting a Gold Ingot?)

You know, I really do try very hard to think about issues from all angles. I really do.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

You know, I really do try very hard to think about issues from all angles. I really do.

It's ok. I don't think you could get Mal to learn to read even if you were an English teacher.

On another note, a thought just occurred to me: what if Red Mages are getting a spell that's like the inverse of White Mage's Sacrifice spell: instead of transferring debuffs to the caster, it would dump buffs on to the target?

Something like that would help realize S-E's new "vision" for the job quick, fast, and in a hurry, even though it won't likely be worth using on anybody other than the tank.

[Malacite]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Meh, I only skimmed through the post. Sue me.

[Taskmage]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Mal;dr