Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Actually, Cor/Whm with a decent MP set can remove the need for a Rdm entirely from a party if you have a Dnc supporting. Even without a Dnc present the /Whm gives them the ability to keep up a haste cycle on their own which dramatically increases real DD's damage output. I've been an advocate of /War or /Rng for a long time now and used to sneer at Cors being a ghetto Brd with /Whm but with the advent of bird parties dying off Cor/DD isn't as amazing as it used to be and in Abyssea alliances sacrificing the survivability of shadows/stoneskin/blink makes you more a burden than a blessing.

What I think is even more important is that COR/WHM and BRD/WHM have Haste now, which they didn't at 75. If there's no other source of spell Haste in the party, that's a pretty big freaking deal even if you never cast a single cure or regen and don't actually have to use your raise or reraise.

And yes, COR is getting a haste roll this update, but it will probably stack with March and spell Haste, the same way they stack with each other and with Haste Samba.


As for RDM, they have the best enfeebling magic skill in the game, and *also* the best enhancing magic skill in the game. If you don't want using enhancing magic to, er, enhance people to be a big part of your job, maybe you need to find another job.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

As for RDM, they have the best enfeebling magic skill in the game, and *also* the best enhancing magic skill in the game. If you don't want using enhancing magic to, er, enhance people to be a big part of your job, maybe you need to find another job.

Enfeebling magic is nerfed against endgame mobs and pointless against fodder mobs, with the exception of perhaps Dia. All of RDM's Enhancing magic that matters to the group are static and are the same potency if you have 0 Enhancing skill or you have 350 Enhancing skill (Refresh and Haste). The ones that are affected by your Enhancing skill level are the self-targets like Enspells, Phalanx, and Spikes.

The job's sword skill also happens to be higher than its Elemental and Healing skill. Inexplicable!

I shouldn't even have to apologize for wanting to frontline. It's shameful that I even have to add disclaimers that, for group activities, I don't melee. But people like YM would be much better off if they would just put themselves in situations where they can do what they want rather than asking the entire playerbase to bend over backwards for them. And I shouldn't have random strangers calling me an ass for wanting melee gear for my RDM even if I know all I will ever do is fool around with it. And I shouldn't have people giving me dirty looks for wanting to skillup on EXP mobs; there's a reason why party's fight them, they're not dangerous.

[Vyuru]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Personally I'd be interested to see what a Rdm/Sch AoEing the lvl II enspells would do for the party, but that's just me.

I'll also point out that in my LS I don't see anyone restricted to just one thing. Like I don't see the Whm restricted to just haste and etc.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Personally I'd be interested to see what a Rdm/Sch AoEing the lvl II enspells would do for the party, but that's just me.

Tried it. Doesn't work with Accession. You wouldn't like it anyway since SE still refuses to fix the way they're calculated (they're based on your Enhancing magic skill at the time you swing, not at the time of casting). For that matter, neither does Baramnesia. That second one is another "Inexplicable!"

[Vyuru]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Tried it. Doesn't work with Accession. You wouldn't like it anyway since SE still refuses to fix the way they're calculated (they're based on your Enhancing magic skill at the time you swing, not at the time of casting).

That sucks! Also explains why i don't see anyone doing it.

[MrMageo]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

As for RDM, they have the best enfeebling magic skill in the game, and *also* the best enhancing magic skill in the game. If you don't want using enhancing magic to, er, enhance people to be a big part of your job, maybe you need to find another job.

They are also the only job in the game that can lower the magic resistance of a mob by simply auto attacking and hitting a WS macro. Yet this is often over looked. (and a certain job only enhances every single important thing we can provide in an exp situation, -def, -mag resit, and -evasion).

As for COR and BRD. It is situational, as is RDM melee. First off it is situational because BRD is expected to pull. In a situation where BRD is not pulling then ya it could in theory pick up a haste cycle, but with 2-4 songs, as well as 3-4 hastes that BRD is going to be quite bitchy. Not to mention /heal a lot (200 MP every 3 minutes adds up very fast). COR has it a bit easier because of its buff duration, however it also provides a good chunk of damage in a DD role, which it won't be doing carrying a 200MP/3MIN haste cycle since it will have to /heal (convert is that good). @ 98 when they can /RDM (which may become a COR staple because of the MAB) and get haste/refresh/convert id see a stronger case, as it stands right now, I don't see it being feesable, over a long duration.

However in the context of a support haste (ie. helping a haste cycle) I totally agree with the worth of a BRD or COR /whm if they are only providing 1/2 hastes a cycle. The reason I LOLCOR'd it was the party Itaz had set up was a COR/WHM providing a full haste cycle. This is simply not going to be possible in any long term party. Heck there are times on RDM when I am backlining where I have to skip haste sometimes just to meet up with healing loads, more so now, when we are expected to burn MP on enfeebles again, as well as heal, and buff. Not to mention the times when we are asked to help wit magic kills.

My whole point was, that Itaz want's things done his way or no way. But when you have 3-4 RDM's at an event 2-3 of those mages are providing nothing additional outside of buffing the WHM's or SCH's in their parties, and hasting. AUTO-ATTACKING in a melee set with enspells and using death blossom and/or steps boosts the overall damage of the Group that much further. You can call it Enhancment through melee, sure it won't show on a parse, but if you look into a parse with a RDM providing enII's DB as well as a stutter step, Box step, quick step being on the mob at all times you will see a difference in everyone else who is damaging the mob.

Actually I lied my real point was BLU does not = a melee RDM. But im sure most people know this by now.

As for RDM, they have the best enfeebling magic skill in the game, and *also* the best enhancing magic skill in the game. If you don't want using enhancing magic to, er, enhance people to be a big part of your job, maybe you need to find another job.

Just to elaborate on this......stop grouping the slow kids in with people who know what they are doing/talking about. My buffs and debuffs come first, my auto attack supplements those buffs and debuffs. If that is to hard for you to understand then I don't know how else to put it. But there are more than enough retards who get up there and totally forget all their spells, and get tunnel visioned into watching their TP. Sadly that is most RDM's who try and melee, and it is the reason certain things haven't caught on in engame, or group play more than they have. Its just a sterotype that all RDM melee suck because they "don't do their job". Just like all BLU suck cuz they dont have gear after AF. But it is also that the majority of you (lik Itaz's comments) expect a RDM who wants to melee to main heal, carry full buff cycles, as well as debuff. That is just not possible.

So I am going to leave it at that. I am content playing my way, and my friends LS are content with the way I play. I love casting a Dia III and boosting its effect with a step, I love casting a gravity, and further increasing it with a step, I love using my EN'II's and further increasing the effect with a Step. I love opening Light or Dark Skill chains for the Big DD to close, and Magic Bursting the mob. Soon I will love hasting DD's and increasing the effect with a samba. I love being in the tank party and refreshing PLD's and giving Aspir Samba to further increase the effect. I love it when My BLM's use MAB gear and not MACC gear, most of all I like it when my team wins and I know that I was a huge part, through the amount of spell and melee related buffs and debuffs I had provided. I am sorry If you feel this is the wrong way to play, im sorry if your super awesome LS doesn't believe in anything but zergs, mostly I am sorry that you can't or don't allow the others to have an opportunity to experiment and find new ways to do things, that are noticible improvments.

because -25% Def, -15% Evaision, -20% resistance, +20% haste (soon) +5-6 refresh (more soon) with 2 different SC options, with MB potential is such a terrible thing from one job.

---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

Personally I'd be interested to see what a Rdm/Sch AoEing the lvl II enspells would do for the party, but that's just me.

I'll also point out that in my LS I don't see anyone restricted to just one thing. Like I don't see the Whm restricted to just haste and etc.

Even if it didit would be pointless, melee have no enhancing magic skills really so it would be poor damage and heavily resisted. You could however, cast enspell 1 on them (say enblizzard) and reap the benefits of your high enhancing skill for potency and accuracy, then cast an ENII (in this case enaeroII) to lower the resistance to the en1 you cast, further increasing the damag potential of your ENI's on the melee.

It works decently (especially against melee resistant mobs.) and considering you can get MACC to near cap on RDM with enspells, you can there for have your melees buffed with a near permanet 20DMG increase, but that would mean you have to melee too, for shame.

(which is why I love love love being in a group with a SCH he can AoE and enspell and I can match the enII and on top of all the above stuff in my previous post, I have now, helped to add 20DMG to the melee (lets see a BRD or COR do that).

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

That sucks! Also explains why i don't see anyone doing it.

Also conflicts with Sambas which is a shame.

[MrMageo]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

depends on the samba I would take +20DMG per melee attack over giving drain or aspir samba but haste samba wins out.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

depends on the samba I would take +20DMG per melee attack over giving drain or aspir samba but haste samba wins out.

Obviously. In a situation where you need Drain or Aspir Samba though the +20DMG is going to be worth nothing. Otherwise you'd be using Haste Samba which +20DMG falls massively behind on.

[MrMageo]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

I think it is funny that SE has taught us how to party. Ovr the years we have done different things. Here is a moderized List of the history of parties.



-The Abyssea Party-

-The Early Traditional Style-
RDM/SCH (or/whm) (use mob weakness AOE enspell 1 and AoE Phalanx /help nuke)
PLD (DD BUILD TANK)
NIN (or war) (First Voke Shadow Tank)
WHM/RDM
THF (puller)
DD

-The TP BURN (with over the top support)-
RDM/DNC (ACC/Haste Set) (use enII of opposing mob weakness + SC on magic kills with SAM for weakness t3, or DD)
SAM/DD (SC with self or rdm on magic kills)
DD (BIG)
BRD/WHM (Share Haste Cycle with COR 2x March)
COR/WHM (ATK+ACC or New Haste if not Delay reducing share haste with BRD)
DNC/WAR (Help build initial steps for evasion, magic resist, def down use haste Samba after lvl 2 of each, or DD)

-The MP Burn-
SCH/RDM (Provide Magical Buffs/Nuke Key Person)
BLM/RDM (NUKE/Self refresh)
BLM/RDM -
BLM/RDM -
COR/RDM (Evokers MAB)
BRD/RDM (Carols/Ballads Key Person)


Some how SE managed to bring it all together in the END Ive got to say I am impressed and look forward to the update, whatever happens happens.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Earliest parties I can recall used to be:

Whm/Smn (Heals/Buffs/bitching about not having a Nin and having to use MP for cures) or Smn/Whm (really grateful initially for the invite then inevitably starts to moan about how Smn is so much more than a healer and could DD if the Rdm healed)
Rdm/Blm (Debuffer/Haster/Support heals/Grav on mobs to stop them running at the healer if the tank sucked)
Pld/war (yes, you're going to have to blow your MP on me and I'll have to fight with the Rdm to get Haste/Refresh) or Nin/war (no I don't want to fight mnk mobs or mobs with AE slow pre-haste)
x3 DD (incl Thf but never Bst and rarely Drg - sole function in the party was to pull hate off the tank just to show they could)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Ha! If AoEs are a problem, your average Ninja is more frail than a properly prepared Red Mage. Composure Stoneskin + Phalanx would like to say "hi."

Or do you back-line all your Ninja, too, and expect them to consistently Ninjutsu and Shuriken the mob to death?

The issue isn't one's survivability up front--RDM pretty much tops the list there. You should be able to figure out the real reason on your own, but: Where is the NIN or SAM or DRK more useful? Up front, or in the back? Compared to the RDM?

So, who should be /WHM for -na, bar-, and Curaga I/II while mostly lurking in the back? Or be on /DRK for an extra Stun? That'd be me on RDM.

You can go back to FoV. lol.

* * *

By the way, THF in my social LS likes to shoot bolts at Salvage bosses and only run in to WS, in order to minimize the the damage he takes and the amount of TP he feeds yet still contribute to damage. The SAMs in Limbus LS do not stay engage for Proto-Omega, either; they only run in when it's in biped mode.

Not even DDs just dumbly cluster around the mobs all the time; RDM should smart about where and how to contribute to the group's effort as well.

* * *

Enfeebling magic is nerfed against endgame mobs and pointless against fodder mobs, with the exception of perhaps Dia.

Not every monster is susceptible to everything, but Dispel, Slow, Paralyze, Bind, Gravity, and Poison are pretty useful--at least, I use them on a regular basis. (Really like Slow II on the monster when I'm tanking on PLD, too!) Even my Bio II macro sees a lot of action, though that's not Enfeebling.

In small group work, Blind can come into play as well. (Think THF tanks.)

All of RDM's Enhancing magic that matters to the group are static and are the same potency if you have 0 Enhancing skill or you have 350 Enhancing skill (Refresh and Haste). The ones that are affected by your Enhancing skill level are the self-targets like Enspells, Phalanx, and Spikes.

And Bar-element spells. Don't forget those.

Don't know about en-, but on a regular basis, I use Phalanx II in Salvage, and spike spells while soloing toe-to-toe (Ice Spikes) or dragging something around (Shock Spikes) whether in group or solo activities.

I shouldn't even have to apologize for wanting to frontline. [...] And I shouldn't have people giving me dirty looks for wanting to skillup on EXP mobs; there's a reason why party's fight them, they're not dangerous.

Don't need to apologize, but up-and-coming RDMs have to realize when swinging a sword just not as useful as staying in the back line.

That said, I've never seen more than a handful of melee RDM in exp party able to keep up Haste, Refresh, Cures; most of them couldn't even get get Dia or Dispel out.

* * *

As for RDMs who say they shouldn't have to cast Cure or Refresh-- get someone else to do that--I say, "Sure. Get out of my party/alliance/LS." RDMs are easier to find than WHMs these days; don't need one with attitude problems.

* * *

Look at what has happened to the White Mage in Endgame Situations thanks to the Red Mage and Scholar. A White Mage's role in Dynsmis is split into two roles involving a single spell:

DD Party: Haste bot
Tank Party: Raise 3 bot

All of the real healing is left to the Red Mages and Scholars

In my Dyanmis LS, the tank party WHM casts Haste, Protectra/Shellra, Cure, Regen. Plus, Accession Protect/Shell another party if that party doesn't have a WHM or SCH, and lots of cross curing. And, yes, R3--and casting Flash on monsters.

He also likes to soak up damage in Afflatus Misery then toss out Banish.

Limbus, Salvage, Dynamis, Sky, Abyssea (NM hunt)... With the groups I run with, there are WHMs in every one of those events regularly, and they are definitely more active than you've described, including Nyzul Isle, when we used to do that. Makes me wonder why you're not wanted as WHM. Odd.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

We took I think one RDM into Dynamis in my ls (until it was time to job change for DL, then we'd get another for dual chainstun), and they were in the tank party. The rest of us WHMs were on our own as far as healing, with a bit of support from the BRDs. I don't know where you guys are saying that WHMs didn't do any healing. Sure, the other jobs with cure spells sure did chip in - including the BLMs - but the brunt of the healing was left up to us. I'd much rather have a well-geared WHM drop a Cure V than any job dropping a Cure IV. On lightsday (even in Dynamis, as long as I didn't get resisted) I could cure well over 1k hp with one spell, and I'm sorry, there isn't a RDM on the planet that can touch even half of that with a Cure IV.***

Maybe it's a difference in playstyle, but when I got to endgame we worked at such a fast pace that Regen became practically useless. It took way too long to cast, and while I was sitting there with my lengthy Regen III people were getting their butts spanked because they'd since moved on to another mob. WHM was most certainly more valuable a healer than any RDM in pretty much every situation.

SCH and RDM are great supporting healers but I'm still not seeing any way they can outclass WHM. I'm not even sure why people are even saying this. Only in merits, really, but even then, good WHMs can hold their own, for the most part. (And you have to have DDs who aren't idiots.)

So yeah, what Itazura said. XD lol. Any ls who doesn't value a WHM as a better healer than RDM is kind of a stupid ls.

***Going purely off of level 75 numbers, as I have no data at all to back that up with the level cap increase.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Earliest parties I can recall used to be:

Whm/Smn (Heals/Buffs/bitching about not having a Nin and having to use MP for cures) or Smn/Whm (really grateful initially for the invite then inevitably starts to moan about how Smn is so much more than a healer and could DD if the Rdm healed)
Rdm/Blm (Debuffer/Haster/Support heals/Grav on mobs to stop them running at the healer if the tank sucked)
Pld/war (yes, you're going to have to blow your MP on me and I'll have to fight with the Rdm to get Haste/Refresh) or Nin/war (no I don't want to fight mnk mobs or mobs with AE slow pre-haste)
x3 DD (incl Thf but never Bst and rarely Drg - sole function in the party was to pull hate off the tank just to show they could)

The good 'ol days right there. Let's not forget the hour it took for the party to gather at obscure spots, the random death(usually by Guivre if you partied in Kuftal, fuck that guy) or by a train of mobs that a pissed off BST brought to greet you.

Probably just nostalgia but those were some funny times.

[MrMageo]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Don't need to apologize, but up-and-coming RDMs have to realize when swinging a sword just not as useful as staying in the back line.

Disagree, up and coming RDM's need to know WHEN being in the bcakline is useful and WHN being in the front lin is useful, just like they need to know WHEN to sub which job.

As for RDMs who say they shouldn't have to cast Cure or Refresh-- get someone else to do that--I say, "Sure. Get out of my party/alliance/LS." RDMs are easier to find than WHMs these days; don't need one with attitude problems.

QFT