Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

I'd try getting your old account back for obvious reasons, but it's not hard leveling. And not everyone is leaving for 14, I'm gonna keep playing since I don't care much for it(mostly cause the Warhammer 40k MMO was finally announced, so now nothing else matters).

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

RDM needed a bone since they pretty much killed RDM and NIN/DRK tanking, if you expected them to get the shaft forever you're mistaken. That's what NIN is for.

Somebody had to take the heat off MNK

Though, THF is riding in pretty close contention for that spot these days. RDM Update is making me consider going back to the job (currently sitting at 72, Abyssea ftw) but idk. I'm maining 4 jobs (SAM SMN BLM DRG) which is proving enough hassle, and if SE keeps doing these retarded DRG updates that might soon drop off too.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

I'd try getting your old account back for obvious reasons, but it's not hard leveling. And not everyone is leaving for 14, I'm gonna keep playing since I don't care much for it(mostly cause the Warhammer 40k MMO was finally announced, so now nothing else matters).

Can't get my bannzored account back. So yeah, not worth going back to the game.

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Mal, it's simple: I don't really want to explain a naked cartoon chick to my girlfriend every time she walks past. It's funny, sure. But it makes perusing the forums feel like I'm at some sort of shady site. And yes, I could turn off avatars (which I've had to do during some months when I had a desk job) but then I actually have to read poster names.

...says the guy w/out an avatar. >.>

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

If you use Firefox, just Adblock his avatar. Right click it, then click on "Adblock Plus Image." When the box pops up, choose the first option (not the one that is already chosen for you - that will block all avatars and not just his - it's the one above that which has a slightly longer URL), and hit "Add Filter." Then you'll never see his current avatar image again.

I use Adblock a lot on forums where people post shock value images. Anything gross gets blocked out so the next time someone posts it I don't have to see it. Usually pictures of people vomiting, as that makes me physically ill.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

I just want to clarify the nature of my complaints.

My complaints are that Red Mage is getting too powerful for one specific duty. The fact that everybody else that would ever need Refresh can now sub it is now moot. My complaint is not that something is changing, but rather precisely that nothing is going to change.

Heck, barring just that one spell, I love everything else that they have given Red Mage with this update. (Now, what they have given to Bard instead of Red Mage this update, well, that's another story . . . )

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Too powerful? RDM's main advantage was the exclusiveness of its spells. You seriously have no idea how well a good SCH can last in mp management, and majority of SCH already sub RDM as it is. Phalanx 2 pretty much became useless in situations where a SCH can get Acc + Phalanx off. They have Convert now too, so RDM's exclusive full mp bar is gone, our main advantage there is we can have one at a lower recast timer though.

If Refresh 2 wasn't added, RDM's only viable situations would be A) DoT kiting lowman situations and B) Enfeebling cause we'd have the higher skill. A job that was pretty useless before our key spell in Refresh would have been left behind and not gotten stronger in the buffing department as all the other mage jobs got our key abilities just by subbing it. And considering RDM gets used quite often to be able to buff people, that's a pretty important thing to update.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

A job that was pretty useless before our key spell in Refresh would have been left behind and not gotten stronger in the buffing department as all the other mage jobs got our key abilities just by subbing it. And considering RDM gets used quite often to be able to buff people, that's a pretty important thing to update.

Except, I have a problem with Refresh and Convert being defined as if they were our "key abilities." That's not the Red Mage that I was advertised, and it's certainly not going to be the Red Mage that I was hoping to play. That was the Red Mage that I was hoping would pass away with the level cap increase.

Honestly? I'd rather be considered useless and unwanted than be wanted by everybody for all the wrong reasons.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Not sure how the newer mobs are, but let's say (hypothetically) that RDM didn't have Refresh. Ever. All the mobs I was fighting at endgame were pretty resistant to our enfeebles, so RDM would be pretty much useless. You'd land your Para and your Slow sometimes, but as I've said before, you can just bring a BLM and have them ES it to stick it and save the party spot for someone who can deal damage. All this assuming Refresh doesn't exist.

In fact, wasn't it said that RDM didn't originally have Refresh and thus were not invited to parties hardly ever?

There are still plenty of times and places for RDMs to do just about everything. Not all jobs can really say that. You can't really kite stuff on BLM, for example, and you can't really tank on SAM. (Sure, to some extent you can do these things, but it isn't viable for long periods of time.) That was what was great about RDM.

But in parties or in endgame situations, why bring a RDM if not for Refresh? And Clever's right. If every other job can sub RDM and fresh themselves, what's the point of having RDM at all? Enfeebles? Not in my endgame. (XD) Sleep in Dynamis maybe. And even that, BLMs can handle. It's sad. One spell defines a job - but hell, let me keep that one goddamn spell all to myself so I have something worth doing. XD

Short answer to YM: Then don't play it. Jobs change. Their expectations change. The players' uses for them change (ohi NIN). I started the game wanting to play SMN but when I saw how useless it really was, I changed my mind. I wanted to be like Yuna and the SMN job in XI did not live up to that expectation at all. I mean yeah, it sucks to get your hopes up that something will be what you want, but lots of times, just like in RL, it isn't. Hope that doesn't really come off bitchy, I just don't see any reason for fretting over it, because after having played RDM longer than any other job, I was still pretty happy with how the job played when I hit endgame.

[Mhurron]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Mal, it's simple: I don't really want to explain a naked cartoon chick to my girlfriend every time she walks past. It's funny, sure. But it makes perusing the forums feel like I'm at some sort of shady site. And yes, I could turn off avatars (which I've had to do during some months when I had a desk job) but then I actually have to read poster names.

Man up nancy. Do you have to get red faced as she stares at you accusingly every time one of those damn Evony ad's was loaded too?

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Except, I have a problem with Refresh and Convert being defined as if they were our "key abilities." That's not the Red Mage that I was advertised, and it's certainly not going to be the Red Mage that I was hoping to play. That was the Red Mage that I was hoping would pass away with the level cap increase.

Honestly? I'd rather be considered useless and unwanted than be wanted by everybody for all the wrong reasons.

RDM was advertised as a fighter mage, and noone wanted them as that role after around 30 cause the damage dropoff was noticeable. You must have not played back then, but RDM was pretty useless One of their key roles that they excelled at for years was buffbots, so that is their key role now. If you want to be what RDM was initially advertised as, go level BLU.

[Feba]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Man up nancy.

Says Mr. Breastface.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

Except, I have a problem with Refresh and Convert being defined as if they were our "key abilities." That's not the Red Mage that I was advertised, and it's certainly not going to be the Red Mage that I was hoping to play. That was the Red Mage that I was hoping would pass away with the level cap increase.

The RDM you insist on is exactly how RDMs typically act when doing FoV or Campaign Battle. So, perfect when working on a page from the Field Manual, but would I want you in any of my LS's?

No way!

Inflexible stubbornness, insisting on doing things on a job which can use time and MP for far better things when in a group activity is not someone I'd want to play with. I'd keep you out for the exactly right reason: you'd be nearly useless.

Unless you're willing to change and adapt, that is.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

go level BLU.

We've been over this already.

but would I want you in any of my LS's?

No way!

Oh noes! I don't get to party with the NA xenophile that isn't even on my server! What ever shall I do?

Look, as you've pointed out, either way, I'm boned. Either I'm stuck in a party doing little but keep up rotations and the occasional cure, or I'm not partying at all. In that sense, if Red Mage would never have gotten Refresh II, I would have "lost" nothing.

Not saying that I wouldn't be willing to adapt at all - I just refuse to be shoved in to either extreme.

[MrMageo]

Re: Job Adjustments Part I (08/27/2010)

RDM was advertised as a fighter mage, and noone wanted them as that role after around 30 cause the damage dropoff was noticeable. You must have not played back then, but RDM was pretty useless One of their key roles that they excelled at for years was buffbots, so that is their key role now. If you want to be what RDM was initially advertised as, go level BLU.

Except a RDM will out melee a BLU, BLU only does well because its 1 second or less cast times on big damage spells (ie. NUKES). In straight melee race RDM will beat BLU everytime. We have access to more haste, equal ACC, we fall behind in attack but we have enspells which is the equvilent of near +200ATK. So no don't go level BLU. They are entirely different jobs. RDM is a support hybrid, BLU is an offensive Hybrid. A simple glance at the spell lists will tell you that.

This If you don't like it go level BLU shit has to stop.

Here is an Idea, if you don't like it, do something about it. I have been meleeing in EXP and in some endgame events, for many many years. But thats because unlike 90% of the other RDM's out there I made sure my melee gear was as up to date and as good as my mage gear. Their are certain things we can do as one job. For example. -40 magic evasion (or and increase of 20% hit rate) covered by one job. RDM/DNC Death Blossom, +EnII, + Stutter Step. That is 40 ACC gear your BLM's can drop in favor of more MAB or Magic Crit. Not to mention Death Blossom is a rare WS in that it opens both light and dark SC's, to further boost magical damage from BLM's and SCH's. At the same time can stack up to 25% -DEF on the mob. That is stackable wit Agnon and other -def abilities. That is a 30% increase in ATK for all the melee.

All of this can be done with one job. Which means another slot for a big DD.

They are two different jobs. Both have their places, and anything a BLU can melee on a RDM can as well and out damage him (in terms of melee damage). The only advantage a BLU has over a RDM is its spell casting time. They can throw a T3/4 nuke out in a second or so where it takes a RDM 3-4. However RDM can outlast a BLU, unless the BLU gimps his melee DoT by subbing RDM.

BLU is limited in its role, it can only set so many spells and traits.
RDM is limited by its subjob selection where it takes on a new role depending on its abilities gained.
BLU takes 1 minute to change its role on the fly.
RDM takes a quick macro swap to cure/buff/debuff/nuke/melee.

They are not the same job, and at the end of the day a well played RDM will out damage a BLU.

However YM needs to stop crying, because all the tools are already there, it is not SE's problem if you can't figure out how to use them.

25% gear haste, over +100 available in ACC, any combination of such, as well as 20-32 DMG enspells, 900 DMG nukes, 400 Cure 4's, Refresh, Haste, -def, -magic resist. It has the most support options of any class in the game, it has the most DD potential without sacrifice of any of the hybrids (RDM,DNC,BLU). Stop complaining and learn how to play the role you want to play.

There are times to melee, times to buff, times to debuff, times to heal, and times to nuke (there used to be times to tank up until a few months ago). You need to learn these times, constantly complaining because you aren't being spoonfed what you want isn't helping you, or the "cause" for RDM melee. We don't need new tools, we just need asshats to stop trying to make it into something it is not.

We can't nuke like a BLM
We can't heal like a WHM
We can't buff like a BRD
We can't DD like a SAM

but we can sure as hell enhance every one of those things for the jobs that do it well, and we can sure as hell do them all at the same time not to be read as nuking and such with a sword to be read as gear swap into proper shit. This is why i think /DNC is the best job for us in most events. It further extends the abilities we already have, and makes the "wasted" TP thing moe tolerable when you need to swap to staves. (ie. Waltz dumps, Step Dumps, Samba Dumps, we also get TP back through Step Dumps).

But for the last time BLU is not DD RDM BLU is BLU. RDM is RDM, RDM > BLU when it comes to melee DoT, BLU > RDM when it comes to magical DoT. RDM > BLU over long fights, BLU > RDM in short fights, RDM > BLU in support.

Stop calling it something it is not.

Inflexible stubbornness, insisting on doing things on a job which can use time and MP for far better things when in a group activity is not someone I'd want to play with. I'd keep you out for the exactly right reason: you'd be nearly useless.

Unless you're willing to change and adapt, that is.

QFT but im also going to ask you a question. How is using a WS + Steps + Dia + Enspells in a meaningful event to provide -20% magic resist, -25% DEF a bad thing? I can understand where you are coming from but that is a 33% DD increase, and a potential for much higher % in magic damage increase. Sure those numbers don't get added to the RDM's parse, sure the RDM looks silly hitting for 5-10 DMG on a mob. But that now 133 damage from the dark, and the now 2400 DMG nuke from the BLM looks a little bit sexier and kills the mob a hell of a lot faster.

Sure you could get a DNC or anyone else /DNC to do the steps. But that just takes TP away from jobs that can either help heal or WS a lot better than a RDM such as a few self skill chains from DNC's and SAM's.

Im just curious, if you won't accept RDM who wants to provide more support to make those around them better, (not saying thats what YM is hinting at im just assuming you hate all RDM melee potential) Why should we bother supporting your ass so you can feel good about yourself?

Just FYI I often go /DNC to NM's HNM's Abyssea NM's VNM's ZNM's XNM's etc etc etc for the sole reason I can increase the power of everyone in the ally, simply because I auto attack. You want to have your cake and eat it, but when push comes to shove your blindness to the overall picture limits your groups true potential. I will garuntee if you find a solidly geared RDM who can hit high level mobs with consistency to the point they can maintain a 5 point step on either melee or magic, or both, while refreshing a WHM or a SCH, and hasting a few DD, you will be surprised by the benefits of having them.

Of course it isn't overly needed, all it does is shaves a few minutes off each fight, but hey, a few minutes per fight with abyssea NM's adds up.