The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

[BurningPanther]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

and since my melee adventures will be nixed.

Why would your melee fun be shortened? It's RDM's hate-holding abilities that were butchered, the rest remains fairly intact.

[Elwynn]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

What are you talking about?

I've been getting fairly decent to pretty good returns on my Aspirs going over 200 MP returns at times as WHM/SCH.
(Dark arts with Dark magic/Macc built. Nothing in there a red mage can't equip either).

You've read this bit, right?

As of the Jun. 21, 2010 version update, we have confirmed the following issue. Investigation and recovery work is currently underway. We ask for your patience in this matter until this issue is resolved.

[Current Known Issues]

- The amount of MP absorption caused by the Black Magic "Aspir" or "Aspir II" is greater than it should be.

[Shirai]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

No I haven't >.<;

[MrMageo]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

Why would your melee fun be shortened? It's RDM's hate-holding abilities that were butchered, the rest remains fairly intact.

Excerpt for the fact my sword skill will be about 18 behind (inc merits) which requires 17 ACC to even match an A skill, with the ACC to hit a mob of level 89+ being in the realm of 40-50+ ACC. Basically I am QQing because my 1.2 second Joyeuse build is no longer viable, due to haste gear having to be dropped for ACC gear (currently I only need to wear +20 ACC gear in combination with /DNC and sushi to hit a 90% hit rate on colibri)

So fairly intact yes but now we are back where we were before compsure, and come level 90-99 we will be to far behind to be able to do a damn thing. Unless they give us a set that is specifically Haste ACC ATK on every single piece.
While in principle it is "fairly the same" we are now further behind than we were before, and we have only further to fall behind. SE has pretty well cemented us a pink mages, unless you build your own SC+MB party (which seems like it got a boost).

Anyhow, I am not totally displeased, I just dislike how yet again, SE has over looked us after they promised to give us some direction of where to go. I seriously doubt SE has any idea what to do with RDM because they have 100K ppl telling them to do 100K different things.

I can sum it up pretty easily.

Give us true melee and casting hybrid gear
Give us DD gear
Give us nuke Gear
Give us enfeebling gear
Give us healing gear.

From there its entirely what the person wants to do with RDM, and is out of your hands. Stop trying to fix thejob because it isn't broken. Just give us gear progression a step behind the other dedicated jobs. (like the late 60s-75 thing where RDM got some awesome stuff that finally put them on par with equally geared people.)

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

A red mage shouldn't really have true anything imo. While it should be able to fill any role at any time it shouldn't be allowed to rival those that are naturally gifted in said role.

[MrMageo]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

It never will even if they get gear sets specific to what they are doing. Their skill set + abilities will never match a true DD even if they get stuff that is deemed DD gear. Mage wise having dedicated nuking gear like BLM would still leave us well behind them in spells and damage. Healing is broken and always has been. As far as enfeebling goes on anything worthwhile we are stuck usually in max accuracy gear, on anything we can use max potency gear the mob dies to quick to bother enfeebling in the first place.

Gear will not make RDM any better than the natural jobs at a specific role, simply because we can not match the skills and abilities they have. Me having the same gear as a well geared DD will still not put me on par with a well geared DD. The gear thing is a huge issue because we get fucked with a lot of stuff. We can not get the same MAB as a BLM, we can not get the same cure potency as a WHM (however as healing is broken already this is a good thing) we can not get the same DD output as other hybrids (see BLU and DNC). Even if we get all the gear it will par us with SCH in terms of nuking, but still trail BLM, will par us wit other hybrid DD but still trail the big guys.

I do not agree with RDM being the best at everything, but I do think we need to have a little better support from gear that we use for various things. I totally support the tanking nerf, on the principle that RDM/NIN was better than PLD on pretty well every fight. Overkill on a lot of things, which is why it wasn't mainstreamed and usually a SAM or DRK could tank them. But there was no reason that RDM should be able to out tank a PLD (RDM would cap total hate in 3 mins vs a PLD 4-5 now it is flipped). RDM is still better than a SAM/MNK/DRK/NIN but we have been put in the right place, because we should not be the best.

Gear wise though, a little bit of help would be awesome so we can maintain our competitive status with BLU and DNC, and DD that are under geared by comparison.

---------- Post added at 02:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

Basically I am tiredof running around at 80/80 with another 30 items in my MH. Give me some leverage or something

[Laynton]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

@MrMageo - Have you looked at all the new armor on ffxiah.com? They have listed EVERY new item that came with the update. armor, weapons,food, mats, meds, everything. i only quickly looked over it last night before bed and i couldnt believe my eyes at how much haste gear i saw!! i dont know what % rdm can wear but i'm sure theres a combo in there that will probably out do the set you have currently for joy-toy. But not for sure....like i said was a fast look over.

But i am sooooo frikn stoked for all the mnd build and nuking gear rdm's get by 80! tons and tons of mp+ gear. 1 example i remember is -25hp +75mp plus some skill+ stats!! if anyone hasnt seen the list go Final Fantasy XI Auction House - FFXIAH.com and its on the left side near middle of page. would post link but damn work blocked the site

@Leon - I agree we shouldnt be so good we out do other jobs at thier job....but SE shouldnt tease us with the ability to do another jobs job almost as good as they do it then completely and unterly nerf us at it. Its like they are still trying to decided what our role actually is and are using us as test subjects 6 years later! I can understand nerfing rdm a bit in some areas b/c we were out tanking pld in some cases (just for example) but almost completely taking that from us was mean. imo anyways. *talking about controlling hate part of tanking*

[MrMageo]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

@MrMageo - Have you looked at all the new armor on ffxiah.com? They have listed EVERY new item that came with the update. armor, weapons,food, mats, meds, everything. i only quickly looked over it last night before bed and i couldnt believe my eyes at how much haste gear i saw!! i dont know what % rdm can wear but i'm sure theres a combo in there that will probably out do the set you have currently for joy-toy. But not for sure....like i said was a fast look over.

Ive seen the list and there is some decent things, but haste isn't the issue (RDM can currently cap gear haste, although getting the 26% required is expensive, and requires Vbelt or Speed belt) The new gear has some nice haste numbers, but considering we already need to add about 20 ACC to our gear, over 5 levels (30 to get 95%) at 90 cap we looking at adding 50 ACC (60 to 95%) at 99 we look at adding 75 (85 to get 95%) and that is just a base estimate, no idea what mob evasion is actually although I put it somewhere Mamool DRG's and the like. (440 or so to cap at 95%). There just isn't enough ACC gear to maintain worthwhile haste. (A properly played RDM should expect Weapon Damage to be 50% of damage, enspells to be about 25% and Weaponskills 15%). The latter 2 rely heavily on haste to keep us on par with BLU and DNC the two jobs we directly compete with in a hybrid role. (Blu has A- sword, DNC has multi tiers of ACC bonus).

The skill stretch is too far. Hell RDM can't even unlock the new WS at 300 skill this update.

SE said they would get us on the front line, /DNC was a good step forward, Composure was a good step forward, but now we need a melee trait, something with either ACC or Haste so we can bridge the gap. Other wise we will be in full ACC builds with little to no haste outside of spells eating sushi, and wasting our, and everyone's time.

But i am sooooo frikn stoked for all the mnd build and nuking gear rdm's get by 80! tons and tons of mp+ gear. 1 example i remember is -25hp +75mp plus some skill+ stats!!

While some of the mage gear is nice, SE once again missed the point our skills are going to b so far bellow the curve that we can't wear half the nuking stuff because we will just get resisted. As for the enfeebling stuff on most stuff that will matter/does matter (currently) we will either have to max skill, or the mob will die so fast enfeebles won't really matter. Unless SE gives us a head and body with + Enfeebskill and +5-10 MND the end result will be the same.

The gear that they make available to RDM just doesn't solve the problems. We need hybrid gear stuff like MAB and Ele skill on the same item. Stuff that makes us respectable. We used to be able to nuke longer than a BLM, or a SCH this was out advantage sheer DoT, but now they both have convert, just like us. Which means they now win in burst and dot. Not just win but outright smoke us.

As it stands right now at 80 the only respectable thing a RDM can do is heal (because healing magic is broken and should be nerfed for jobs other than WHM and SCH in light arts ie. based off skill like every other magic) and enfeeble (either in a max skill set, or on mobs that don't really need to be enfeebled in the first place in a MND/INT set.) For a job that is supposed to be versatile SE has really been lacking in keeping it so. But because of the last thing a RDM can still do at 80 (solo) they continue to overlook the widening gap between our nuking, and melee. For some reason SE still assumes RDM is over powered because a handful of people on a handful of servers are able to tickle things to death over the course of an hour. However they don't bat an eye when a THF/DNC or NIN/DNC or SAM/DNC or NIN/RDM do similar things.

(as a side we can still tank, but why bother PLD out classes us on every mob now so just use him /RDM for the magic based ones.)

SE just does not know what to do with RDM (which is why it has been stagnant for 7 years other than composure). They can't really buff it because it would have to be buffed over melee,nuke,heal,enfeeble to appease everyone, it doesn't get nerfed (and no the tanking thing doesn't count) directly. It just gets passed over while other jobs move further and further ahead.

Really the only solution is Hybrid gear containing stats for desired for each aspect, such as a melee item with haste/acc/atk
or a nuking item with mab/macc(or skill)/int. The simple fact is they can't even make those items right (hi2u chasbule set).

I still love my RDM and I am still going to do everything I can do as best I can (tank/nuke/heal/enfeeb/melee) but tbh a lot of the overall QQ from RDM's is due to the fact we have had a 1 minor ability added to us in 7 years, and other jobs are just leaving us in the dust.

@Leon - I agree we shouldnt be so good we out do other jobs at thier job....but SE shouldnt tease us with the ability to do another jobs job almost as good as they do it then completely and unterly nerf us at it. Its like they are still trying to decided what our role actually is and are using us as test subjects 6 years later! I can understand nerfing rdm a bit in some areas b/c we were out tanking pld in some cases (just for example) but almost completely taking that from us was mean. imo anyways. *talking about controlling hate part of tanking*

Tanking had to be nerfed. On every non-zerged endgame mob a RDM/NIN was better than a PLD as far as speed to cap, and sustainability. Now we are still more sustainable, we just take longer to cap, which in itself is not a huge deal (PLD and RDM co tanking will still be around and RDM will still tank somethings). But we were overpowered there. As for everything else we do with other jobs getting convert we are now out classed in everything we do, except enfeeble.

[Laynton]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

1. thanks for the numbers i actually didnt know some of that.

2. I agree that if SE doesnt do something to fillin the gap we are going to slowing be pushed to the back of the pack and only be good at enfeebling...which is really on good for HNM type battles. I think a new JA's that focuses on sertain aspects of other jobs tanking, nuking, healing etc would be a great way to do that. Have them like stances similar to Composure were it increases skills/stats that are related to that stance and reduces others.

3. As much as I would love to be able to tank better than pld I agree that it needed to be nerfed i just wish it wasnt as much a punch to the nuts as it was.

[Aksannyi]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

which is really on good for HNM type battles, where all of your skill doesn't mean jacksquat and you'll need Elemental Seal to land them, and BLM mains can sometimes out-enfeeble you, much to your great frustration considering all of the time you spent capping your skill, meriting it, and maxing your enfeebling gear sets.

Uh, yeah.

[MrMageo]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

which is really on good for HNM type battles, where all of your skill doesn't mean jacksquat and you'll need Elemental Seal to land them, and BLM mains can sometimes out-enfeeble you, much to your great frustration considering all of the time you spent capping your skill, meriting it, and maxing your enfeebling gear sets.

HNM battles where a BLM can stick an enfeeble before you (reliably) are HNM battles where I was referring to the "not needing enfeebles" the mob dies to fast to warrant use really.

[Solymir]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

That's exactly why I quit and why I likely won't be doing FFXIV.

Now that you have free time I expect more 8-bit gifs.

[Aksannyi]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

HNM battles where a BLM can stick an enfeeble before you (reliably) are HNM battles where I was referring to the "not needing enfeebles" the mob dies to fast to warrant use really.

Sticking Slow on Khimaira (which is the first that comes to mind) was something that we used an ES rotation for, and yes, that included the BLMs sticking slow on the mob. While RDMs got Slow II, that didn't matter as much as having the mob Slowed.

And yes, it does annoy me that 1. I had to use ES 95% of the time to even land my enfeeb, even with an exceptional enfeebling set, and 2. BLMs could land it with that same reliability simply because of the aforementioned JA and that all of my extra skill meant nothing.

Now if that's not an HNM worth enfeebling, I don't know what is.

[MrMageo]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

Notice I said reliably ES is hardly reliable and if basing reliability on something available every 10 minutes is what you base something on then Id love to hear more about it. The fact a RDM requires ES speaks volumes for the first part of my post, the one that says you either need full skill set, or on mobs that don't mean anything (sky mobs come to mind) ad INT/MND set.

Selective reading has always been a strong suit around here...

[Aksannyi]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (06/21/2010)

I'm aware that it's 10 minutes, that's why we'd put it on a rotation.

And I'm not sure which post you are talking about, all I hear is that we're still master enfeeblers but as someone who played RDM at endgame in a high end HNM shell, I never really saw a whole lot of enfeebling going on, it was haste, refresh, phalanx 2 and cures pretty much all of the time. I guess if you're still doing sky it can be useful, but who the hell still does sky?

For most of the newer stuff like salvage, Einherjar, ToAU HNMs, enfeebling has gone way out of style. It's all about using RDM as a buffer. Which is part of the reason I hated playing RDM so much by the time I quit, because it was nothing like it was back in like 2006 when I leveled it.

Sorry if none of this makes sense, it's after midnight and I'm not entirely sure why I'm still up. I'll reorganize this again tomorrow if you're still interested but the main point I want to get across is that RDM as the enfeebling role has gone way out of style, and you have other jobs that can - and have - filled that role where situations necessitate, and that it seems SE really wants RDM to be a backline buffer kind of job.