Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

[Feba]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

Break(er)

What a silly controversy.

Clearly it's Breakah. How else would you fight the Powah?

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

Fixed

[Dim Mahk]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

I wonder if BLMs will still be outcasted to party by themselfs after this update? would be nice to join a traditional setup for heavens sake.

[Romyro]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

What I want to know about Mana Wall is: If I have 1 MP left, and the enemy hits me for 2000 damage, will I take 0 damage or 1999?

Sounds stupid but it does the former in Final Fantasy Tactics.

i asked that and i think Ziero shot my dreams down...

--(post #44-45 on this topic)--

[MrMageo]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

Yeah, Ninjas don't have any buffs other than sneak and invis.

Certainly nothing powerful to base the popularity of the entire class on.

Really a shame, you'd think a Ninja would have some stupidly overpowered tool that SE didn't forsee the consequences of and will never be able to properly fix.

Ive missed Feba sarcasm

[Tipsy]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

Double shot + True shot on RNG is going to be .. yeah.

If 3k Slug Shots wasn't enough, what's next, 6k? 6.5k?

[MrMageo]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

Also, it's a JA, and thus not interruptable. As opposed to SS, which takes at least two enemy attack rounds to cast, and if you're lucky enough to get it off, maybe another two or three rounds before it runs out. And once Mana Wall is up, you can bind/sleep the mofo without getting an interrupt. And maybe GTFO to a zone line.

If you're getting hit by a high-damage AoE, so what if you're left with almost no MP? If you didn't KO, you're still better off. (except that if you do KO, you'll probably get up with zero MP)

Unfortunately, I don't think it will stop you getting interrupted for cutscene zone changes. Even getting prot/shell cast on you from an NPC can interrupt that shit. I learned pretty quickly not to protectra/shellra in the Nyzul lobby room.

From my viewpoint on the ability it is a convert shield. BLMs are usually near the top of the hate list, and 9/10 times left to fend for themselves. After burning your initial MP and converting a BLM will probably have to cure themselves (cure 3,4) this adds even more hate onto the hate from droping phat nukes, which will probably invite the mob to you. If Stoneskin is not up then tis mana wall will prevent you from being wasted. What spikes my curiosity will the MP damage still result in emnity loss. If itdoesn't (like Stoneskin gettin hit for 0) then the ability is pretty well wasted outside of an ohshit solo ability.

Also Ice Spikes > shock spikes, please stop using shock spikes, Ice spike is the mos tpotent player usable paralyze in the game so for added security please please use Ice spikes, for the love of god.

---------- Post added at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 PM ----------

On another semi related note:


The player base flaw is that they saw 1 guy on 1 job do this, and assume every other player on that job ca do the same. I hae had the luxury of seeing awesome DD and pathetic DD. Somewhere in the middle lies the average DD, and that DD is the guy/girl who tries to put in the effort has some decent gear, not the best gear but not the gimpest gear. They are the person who makes up the majority of the game. They are the DD's without Hauby +1, or Ares, or relics, or sea gear. They are the people who have bought NQ stuff to make temselves better than the AF guys.

As a well geared (when I was well geared before I quit) RDM ive out DD'd them all. Not because RDM is stellar but because I put 120% effort into ensuring I could be the best at what I was doing. Considering the average player is the majority player, my well geared RDM has out DD'd the majority of DD's in the game.

The same lies true for other "subpar" DD's. When the rigt person is behind the wheel driving a job, then that job can b played brilliantly. I have seen well geared PUP's out DD well geared SAM's DRG's WAR's DRK's, ive seen them out nuke the best BLM's and SCH's. I have seen them out heal the best WHM's RDM's SCH's. But because the player base has seen a few meh ones they assume the job sucks badly (see lol drg days hell id wager 100% of the post ToaU players know what that is about).

Conceptions in this game are entirely player based, and it comes down to stigma. It is a well I heard xxx job sucksat ding that, so I wont invite them to do that. When the stigma comes down the elitest chain. Just because a full HQ SAM out DD'd an AF BST does not mean all bst suck. Just because a full HQ WAR out DD's a melee RDM does not mean that RDM's all suck at DD.

It is disappointing when people invite others based on job reputation, and not persons reputation. Like I said a well geared RDM melee will out DD and average geared "generic DD". But given the fact people just assume a fresh NQ unmerited WAR is awesome cuz they had a party with an HQ merited war lots of jobs get lost in the shadows or player base "ass"uptions.

[Ketaru]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

It is disappointing when people invite others based on job reputation, and not persons reputation.

Actually, the real problem is that there is no reputation in this game as far as I can tell. That is the only reason why some people can do things like ninja-lot on items they were not entitled to, then they just have to log on tomorrow and it will be as if it never happened. Hell, there is a running joke on Siren of a player who has really good gear but is notoriously bad at the game (the rumor is he has a job trait, "Aggro Everything" and is known to have wooden tables attack him in Assault).

Yet I see him in Nyzul groups along with me over and over and nobody has the heart to kick him, even though everybody is snickering behind his back. All I can say, if I see him in my groups, I know my job as a healer just got exponentially harder and the party banter just got more stupefying.

When I first started playing this game 6 years ago, I melee RDM to level 55 with a Dagger and an underleveled WHM subjob. Can you imagine if that had followed me around to present day?

[Losrase]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

Also Ice Spikes > shock spikes, please stop using shock spikes, Ice spike is the mos tpotent player usable paralyze in the game so for added security please please use Ice spikes, for the love of god.

Shock spikes > Ice Spikes when you are running from something. I would rather have the mob I am running from stop moving to build some distance to stop hitting me than to keep up with me and miss a few hits.

[Malacite]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

I'm more curious about how Tier V calculations will work.


As we already know, the higher the tier the more MAB affects it. So, even though SCH gets Tier V as well, I'm curious if their lack of MAB and Elemental Skill will finally widen the gap between them and BLM large enough.

I'm not trying to bash on SCH here, I just find that the job performs a little too well, especially given their MP endurance over BLM and the multitude of other roles they can serve. BLM can't exactly switch it's battle plan on the fly like SCH can, so I feel they ought to widen the gap a bit more between the two in terms of raw damage dealing power, and it shouldn't just be because of 1 spell (Meteor). Would have really preferred Tier 2 Helix for SCH over Tier V nukes.


I'm surprised though, that in 5 levels BLM is already getting 2/6 Tier V's. At this rate we'll have all 6 by 90, so what's gonna happen in the 91~99 range? I'm banking on Meteor being a 99 ability. What would be interesting is if you are forced to choose at 99 between say Meteor and Ultima >.>

[Ketaru]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

Would have really preferred Tier 2 Helix for SCH over Tier V nukes.

Now that would've been overpowered. The current set of Helix spells already scale up so well with level that I can scarcely imagine how ridiculous tier II Helix spells would be. I imagine, at level 99, they will still be as good as they are now (which is quite good).

The reality is I'm not really all that excited about getting tier V nukes.

[MrMageo]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

The reality is I'm not really all that excited about getting tier V nukes.

As unfortunate as it is SCH is still keeping in line with BLM. (would have liked to see SE keep SCH as a mixed magi instead of awesome in both departments, like the RDM casting side). They do need something that people can look at above and beyond being WHM +1 as far as curing goes.

We hav all come to grips with SCH stepping on toes, they nuke as well as BLM's (in terms of efficiency the nuke better) They heal as well as WHM (in terms of efficiency WHM has a slight lead as far as status removal). But these equal to, greater than traits are separated by a JA, and a quick macro swap of gear.

At 99 SCH will be the go to mage for most events/parties, unless SE does something to drastically curb the perception of the player base. Which I was kind of eluding to in my previous post.

Unless BLM gets something stellar, SCH will continue to "out do" them overall, in the sense they can operate as an equal, while retaining the ability to switch modes and vastly out play BLM in support. Likewise on the flip side, they will be able to keep up wit WHM's and should the need arise switch modes and out do them offensively.

The only other casting job with this type of versatility is RDM, however @ 99 RDM's overall usefulness will fall into decline in comparison, unless SE gives them haste 2 (@ 20%+) and refresh 2 (at 6-10 MP/tic) both spells which I as a RDM would not like to see.

From a RDM standpoint, I am looking forward to the day we are not #1 anymore, hopefully it will weed out the flavor of the decade RDM's who only leveled/used the job to obtain gear/merits for other jobs less needed. The mage side of me however, is saying shut SCH down in its tracks now. The nuking power of a BLM and the buffs of a RDM, with the healing of a WHM wiht only a JA between them is a little much.

Heck even RDM should not get T4's (however convert going to BLM kind of makes my reasoning redundant) In the current AMII/T4 vs T3 world, I usually in a nuking role come out close to BLM's in total damage done. Not on a per nuke basis, but in an overall nuking situation. Based on convert. Now SE has made convert 100% subable, this curbs that in a big way. Alternatively, my superiority over WHM as a cure battery is gone with convert now being subable. RDM's overall status has declined already. However SCH has now grown more so with T5's convert and the eventual haste.

However, I melee on RDM, and do so as /DNC, which has been my primary sub since it came out. So I am happier than a pig in shit with all the subble DNC upgrades. Hopefully this is SE's way of saying, RDM is now going to be a hybrid, which I have always considered it and played it as such.

Of course the stigma will always be RDM is backrine onry, and is going to be the least appealing of all backline jobs. Something game changing will have to arise to make the hybrid RDM "acceptable", because people are stupid. But I said it years ago, heck i am sure my RDM/DNC guides are still on the RDM forums somewhere. I am quite sure outside of niche situations requiring stun RDM/DNc will be the primary, with RDM/SCH filling the void in the instance a WHM or SCH can't be found.

Frankly T5's to SCH pretty well have set in stone the mag hierarchy as

SCH
WHM,BLM (depending on the situation being support or damage)
RDM

Not tha I have an issue with that as a hybrid RDM ive been on the bottom of the chain for a long time. I would aso be happy to see the 30% or so RDM's who only levelled it for invites go level something else and stop being bad reps of the jobs capabilities.

[Armando]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

As we already know, the higher the tier the more MAB affects it.

...? The effect is the same. BLM will remain ahead by the same % of damage as long as the gap in MAB remains the same.

[Malacite]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

I thought higher tiered nukes were affected by MAB more? Or is that purely because of the increased base damage?

[Elwynn]

Re: Adjustments of the Job Persuasion! (06/17/2010)

Now this car thing has me thinking. maybe the new nin move will allow the ninja to summon a vehicle of some kind mid combat to have the whole party ride in. We hop into it and stick our heads out the window wearing cool sunglasses and drive right into the mob in something classy. (Like a Volvo or BMW. something not too classy but still higher middle class). . . . The animation is 3 minutes long.

The animation will consist of every party member bobbing their head to a loop of "What is Love?"

From my viewpoint on the ability it is a convert shield

I was sure that this started at level 45 (when BLMs would need it the most to solo), but I checked and I was wrong. Still, it starts at 76, not 80, and if you have Convert, you also have Stoneskin, making it redundant for that purpose.

Also Ice Spikes > shock spikes, please stop using shock spikes, Ice spike is the mos tpotent player usable paralyze in the game so for added security please please use Ice spikes, for the love of god.

This. If they can proc a spike off you, a momentary stun isn't going to do much.

Shock spikes > Ice Spikes when you are running from something. I would rather have the mob I am running from stop moving to build some distance to stop hitting me than to keep up with me and miss a few hits.

Ah, a good situational reason to use Shock Spikes. But I believe the original complaint was about people who were not running away. In other words, the "it's higher level so it must better" idiocy that makes people think that spamming high tier spells for skillups makes them proc faster. And that makes them always use their newest WS, even if it's an AoE WS and they're exping. (specifically, Earth Crusher, a favorite of noob WHMs, and even I did it when I was young)


As for "everybody gets full convert", if you haven't checked exactly what convert does, please do so before continuing to whine about it not being nerfed. It so happens that RDM's max HP and MP are usually about even, and that's important. SMNs are going to be so pissed if they don't find out how it works until after they reach 80 and try it themselves. (Ohey SMN HP build kplx?) Convert is quite good at nerfing itself if you have significantly more MP than HP. (now I my Cobra Robe Set gear even more)


And as for Meteor, I just thought of something horrible... what if they pull an Odin/Alex and make it automatically invoke Manafont? :O