Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

[Ziero]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

We're not in disagreement. It's not high difficulty that makes a fight great, it's simply good design. Even when those fights are made easier, they were still good fights.

Then you missed the part where I said they were fun because they were initially hard, but over time while the fights themselves didn't change I personally got better at winning them, making them easier through an increase of player skills and experience. They were fun, despite being easy, because when I first did them they weren't easy.

Now, they're just speed bumps to sea because anyone who will do them will do them much higher then the old caps and thus never have that initial challenge. They won't have the same "This was once hard, but now that I'm used to it and a better player it's easy" feeling of satisfaction.

Fights that were never a challenge to begin with always did and always will suck.

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

lol genbu(sky?)!

[Feba]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Fights that were never a challenge to begin with always did and always will suck.

Well I hate to break it to you, but the Dragon fight was never hard. You just sucked. I sucked too. The dragon fight is a cakewalk. Beating it doesn't mean you've improved as a player, it means you've found a barely competent group with some time to kill.

The difference is, back when we did them, there were a lot of players that were new, that didn't have any idea what they were doing. That's not the case anymore. Almost anyone who's doing 2-3 now is doing it with people who did it years ago. And because those people have the experience, it's not going to be a challenge. The fight itself never changed, but it's now not at all a challenge for that new player.

COP is the same way, but hard. At this point, most COP groups are (and have been for a couple years) players who've already beaten it helping out players who haven't. And because COP is entirely reliant on groups, people who aren't working with a static (which is most) aren't going to have anything to 'improve'. It's a matter of luck with who you get in your pickup group. The "None of us have done any of this before, but we're going to work together from now until Promathia dies" group is a rarity now. The biggest difference is that you can do the dragon fight in 30 minutes with a pick up group. COP had been pretty well blocked out to anyone who isn't in an LS with people who've already beaten it. Now it's more open-- and I'm not disagreeing that this is probably too far in the other direction, but at this point, I think anybody who wanted the challenge out of it has already gotten that. What's wrong with opening it up now for everyone else?

[Armando]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

What's wrong with opening it up now for everyone else?

Nothing really. I'm just miffed about what you said before that - it went too far in the opposite direction.

Uncapped dungeons? Sure, no problem. They were a pain in the ass, no one liked them, and they took up so much time no one ever wanted to help with CoP (unlike ToAU which is just showing up at the BC.) The dungeons weren't a measure of skill, and there were no real puzzles to solve. But damn, making every fight before Tenzen trivial? They could've just made Promys clearable with 3, Minotaur and Mammets with 4, and so on (honestly, that shit was too hard for low level content.) They could've even nerfed the airship fight so you didn't need to stock up on Polymer Pumps and make your tank carry more Hi-Pots than a pharmacy to win. That would've been fine, as long as the fight still posed some sort of challenge.

You said good design makes a fight great, even if it's made easier. Sure. But if it's almost impossible to lose, can you still call it a fight? No one's gonna deliberately gimp themselves. Calling in Lv.75s to blitzkrieg through all your BCs - or soloing everything yourself if you're already at that point - is going to be the norm. CoP's not the only thing - ToAU's final boss is also going to be a joke for a party of Lv.80's. Even if they're wearing Lv.75 gear, a 5 level difference changes everything. EDIT: I retract that last statement, I think the fight is capped since it removes buffs on entry.

[Mhurron]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

(honestly, that shit was too hard for low level content.)

No it wasn't.

if it's almost impossible to lose, can you still call it a fight? No one's gonna deliberately gimp themselves. Calling in Lv.75s to blitzkrieg through all your BCs - or soloing everything yourself if you're already at that point - is going to be the norm. CoP's not the only thing - ToAU's final boss is also going to be a joke for a party of Lv.80's. Even if they're wearing Lv.75 gear, a 5 level difference changes everything.

I did all three promies with someone last night, hell for giggles I chainspell Blizzard 3 the mea boss to death in a minute (that didn't beat the record of 40 seconds). They didn't get the awesome feeling of zoning into Lufaise Meadows I did. They started not too long ago, it's not like they had been putting this off forever.

Oh maybe they could have found people to sync down to, but because it's not needed you will not find the people willing to do it.

[Feba]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

But if it's almost impossible to lose, can you still call it a fight?

That's the thing, yeah. And it really depends on what you want out of the missions: if you want the challenging gameplay, or you want the storyline. I think most of us remember the Shadowlord fight much better than the skull fight thingy, even though that one never had its cap removed, and was probably more challenging. Very few of us played the Shadowlord fight when it was capped; and this being before level sync, it was pretty much impossible to get the experience as it was originally intended. But I think even if you had a 75 character soloing it, you remember the fight simply because it was great, even if it didn't pose a challenge.

To go back to MGS, there's The Fear in MGS3. When I first fought him, it was incredibly frustrating. I tried to perch in a tree and shoot at him. Problem was, the camera literally didn't pan fast enough for me to keep the gun on him, when I lost him, he had camo, and when I couldn't find him, he'd recover his health. Eventually, he died not through skill so much as luck. Later on, I discovered that there was a far simpler and quicker way of killing him. Take a fake death pill, wait for him to get bored of the corpse and turn around, toss a flash grenade to stun him, and then fill him with a machine gun for a kill in all of about half a minute, if that.

Did I feel like a better player when I found a better way of killing him? No. Did I feel like I'd accomplished something when I beat him the first time? No. The way of killing him was just a way of killing him; killing him through luck was just a matter of time and not dying myself. COP is much the same way-- you can find little things that make it a push over (invincible tanks and SMN parties come to mind), or you can fight the hard way and oftentimes victory comes down far more to luck than skill.

So on whether a fight with no challenge is much of a fight, I'd say no. But I'd also say that a fight that is won largely on luck isn't much of a fight either. When I kill something, the feeling should optimally be "fuck yeah! I/We did it!", not "Finally, it dies." or "If the random number generator had gone another way, we would've lost.", or "It's a good thing that person wasn't a bit laggy, or we would've had to do all of this over again", which were all ways I felt after Promies. COP really needs to be heavily adjusted, and that's just not happening years after its release with SE being lazy.

[Ziero]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Well I hate to break it to you, but the Dragon fight was never hard. You just sucked. I sucked too. The dragon fight is a cakewalk. Beating it doesn't mean you've improved as a player, it means you've found a barely competent group with some time to kill.

The difference is, back when we did them, there were a lot of players that were new, that didn't have any idea what they were doing. That's not the case anymore. Almost anyone who's doing 2-3 now is doing it with people who did it years ago. And because those people have the experience, it's not going to be a challenge. The fight itself never changed, but it's now not at all a challenge for that new player.

There are those times when even the 2-3 Dragon can screw people over. It might not take out a whole party, but Petroeyes/Chaosblade can easily drop low manned runs. There have been times where I've tried to duo/trio it and failed, partly because we weren't full prepared and partly because the Dragon/Eye would hit us hard at the start. Having said that, the first time I did it it was with a party of lowbies who didn't really know what they were doing. But now that I know how to handle it and how to deal with the actual fight I can freely solo it. So yea, there is a case of personal improvement in this situation.

EDIT: I retract that last statement, I think the fight is capped since it removes buffs on entry.

All "uncapped" capped battlefield fights had their caps removed, which includes things like Nyzul, Assaults and story line missions.

That's the thing, yeah. And it really depends on what you want out of the missions: if you want the challenging gameplay, or you want the storyline. I think most of us remember the Shadowlord fight much better than the skull fight thingy, even though that one never had its cap removed, and was probably more challenging. Very few of us played the Shadowlord fight when it was capped; and this being before level sync, it was pretty much impossible to get the experience as it was originally intended. But I think even if you had a 75 character soloing it, you remember the fight simply because it was great, even if it didn't pose a challenge.

I actually did my first Shadowlord fight at 60. And I very literally refused to let anyone over 60 or under 50 help me. In the end, I gathered a bunch of friends who used secondary/third jobs and stormed the castle. One friend, who did have a high level solo it for her, was convinced we'd die horrible horrible deaths before we even got to the Shadowlord. But sadly she was terribly mistaken as even at 60 cap the damn thing was a waste of time. Soloing Rank 4 in it's entirety, including taking De'Vyu the Headhunter on one on one as a lvl 45 War (which is what he is as well), was far more of a memorable experience for me. Sadly, I'm apparently in the minority when it comes to deciding what is and is not fun.

So on whether a fight with no challenge is much of a fight, I'd say no. But I'd also say that a fight that is won largely on luck isn't much of a fight either. When I kill something, the feeling should optimally be "fuck yeah! I/We did it!", not "Finally, it dies." or "If the random number generator had gone another way, we would've lost.", or "It's a good thing that person wasn't a bit laggy, or we would've had to do all of this over again", which were all ways I felt after Promies. COP really needs to be heavily adjusted, and that's just not happening years after its release with SE being lazy.

I've lost many a Promy on luck just as I've won many on it's merit as well. However I know that the majority of my wins and losses can be based purely on preparation and teamwork. Luck is going to play a part in literally every contest or competition ever created, it's just something that will always be there. But there are many fights in this game which can be won or lost based on skill and planning. Promy fights were some of those fights.

[Truece]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Sadly, I'm apparently in the minority when it comes to deciding what is and is not fun.

Or, at least, the minority when it comes to deciding what is/is not fun for others.

[Ziero]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

...yea, I kinda worded that wrong.

[Feba]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Promy fights were some of those fights.

Frankly, I disagree. They took skill, sure, but they also took a damn lot of luck.

Animas being an example. Obtaining and using them properly took at least a little bit of time and intelligence. But when they're used, the effects can vary. When I did Holla, for example, the boss was completely shut down by anima. We used them in sequence, and the boss was unable to do anything. Other times, you'd use an anima and it would have a small effect, but not nearly so powerful. Helpful, but not a winning tool.

Another example, the Dem boss' spawns. Obviously dealing with them took skill, but their spawning was largely luck. I had some runs where he barely spawned any, and only later on, and some where he kept popping the bastards as often as he could. For that matter, how much and which TP moves they used in general. I don't like bosses that conform to such a strict pattern that you can play them blind, but FFXI's "fuck it, they're going to randomly pick moves whenever" bullshit is absurd. The occasional whammy is a very good thing for keeping people on their toes and keeping things tricky; having back to back whammies faster than a healer could possibly cure (LOOKIN' AT YOU MEA; but also applies in a 'faster than DD can kill' sense to Dem) is just shitty design.

Look at some of the classic boss fights in other FFs. Yunalesca, assuming you don't take an 'lolbossfights, I'm just going to get all of my overdrive gauges charged before I go in' approach to FFX, is a good example. There's no quick fix to beating her, she throws out new stuff all the time, but ultimately the fight never becomes unmanageable. It takes thinking, maybe some planning, but not pure luck. The Elder Dragon in FF12, on the other hand, has caused many a grind, because it can be damn hard to keep up with all the enfeebles he throws out without having characters leveled to the point where it's easier to survive them.

[MrMageo]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

meh lucky or not, skill or not, hardest thing about CoP hands down was getting 5 other competent people. Frankly I will not miss having to find 5 competent people. Id rather just smash through alone, or with a couple friends. Will miss the planning of fights though, bu ill gladly give up that for not having to deal with people, because honestly people are highly over rated.

[Ziero]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Animas being an example. Obtaining and using them properly took at least a little bit of time and intelligence. But when they're used, the effects can vary. When I did Holla, for example, the boss was completely shut down by anima. We used them in sequence, and the boss was unable to do anything. Other times, you'd use an anima and it would have a small effect, but not nearly so powerful. Helpful, but not a winning tool.

...Errr, anima have a constant and consistent effect every time you use them. One stops the bosses attack for 30 seconds while the other stops their specials for 30 seconds. And once under 20% HP, the bosses start to spam their strongest moves back to back, so it's best to save at least one Hystero Anima for that part of the fight because the boss will be locked out long enough to finish it off.

These fights were fairly predictable, despite the random move generator. Holla boss would always use his AoE sleep followed by his single target drain, Mea boss would always go into "freakout-mode" at low HP and basically become a spinning top of death, and the Dem boss would become the welfare momma and just start popping out kids faster then could be dealt with. Anima were 90% of the time the major difference between an easy, quick clean win and a face-raping, lolworthy epic fail.

[Mhurron]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Anima were 90% of the time the major difference between an easy, quick clean win and a face-raping, lolworthy epic fail.

And each of the CoP bcnm battles were like that, a little item that made it go smoothly, meaning even more so with CoP missions just a little preparation made all the difference.

Killed the Minotaur last night, probably doing Mamets tonight. If we had got started a little earlier in the evening we probably could have done both last night. Subligar farming in the Aqueducts is a joke.

[Losrase]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

And each of the CoP bcnm battles were like that, a little item that made it go smoothly, meaning even more so with CoP missions just a little preparation made all the difference.

Killed the Minotaur last night, probably doing Mamets tonight. If we had got started a little earlier in the evening we probably could have done both last night. Subligar farming in the Aqueducts is a joke.

I forgot about the Aquaducts and Sancrum(sp?). I always wanted to take down the bat NM with his BLM friend. This update makes me want to come back more and more,
not for the level cap increase but for the fun to be had in CoP.../sigh

Edit:I just remembered all the stuff I couldnt get done in Site A and Site B...BAH! (Must not come back...must stay away...)

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

I actually did my first Shadowlord fight at 60. And I very literally refused to let anyone over 60 or under 50 help me.

Ditto. We had such a fun time....afks in aggro...getting lost...an incident with bear mace....some of the best times I had in game were doing things the way they should be done.