Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

[cidbahamut]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Solo'd 3-5 (Diabolos) as 69 NIN, with ease.

>_>b

/RAGE

So much for adventure. God dammit.

[Mhurron]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

/RAGE

So much for adventure. God dammit.

Meh, finish all the mission lines and quit. All the game breaking changes that just happened won't irritate you as long then.

[Romyro]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

I wish SE would have given you the option to fight it capped or uncapped.

Such as you’d get the xp/gil/item bonuses if you fight capped.

If you fight uncapped you get no rewards (other than completing the mission).
Or if you go uncapped and happen to die, you lose xp.

At least that way you could try the old method a few times before just destroying it uncapped.

[Takelli]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

At least that way you could try the old method a few times before just destroying it uncapped.

It should be so that if you wipe three times, then you get a chance to do it uncapped, not given a choice about it IMO.

[Ziero]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

No, I think the "Capped = Reward/Uncapped = Nothing" concept would have been the best way to go. Especially since even the 75 fights have been 'uncapped'.

[Tipsy]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Honestly, I tried the mission a few times before this update, and we lost. But, I never had as much fun as I did soloing it on Ninja.

I'm extremely thankful I don't have to spend countless hours organizing a party in Whitegate, this game is so much better when you don't have to rely on that.

And don't say, "Go play WoW," 'cause no, just no.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

OK, then, go play a single player game.

Because even WoW has things where you have to form strong groups to get things done. Do you seriously believe that the wall you hit with CoPs won't happen again in FFXI somehow? I promise you its going to happen again.

[Romyro]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

I guess congrats for getting it done. Hopefully it was at least somewhat ‘tough’ for you to do. I don’t agree with SE’s decision to uncap the battles but since it has been done, I don’t expect people not to finish because it’s no longer going to be a challenge.

I can honestly say I feel bad for you though. You’ll probably never know how tough the Mithra fight was…you’ll probably get through Snoll with ease.
And you’ll probably never get to fully feel the intensity of the airship battle. You’ll probably remember those promyies forever but you’ll eventually lose track of all the remaining missions moving forward.

[Tipsy]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

OK, then, go play a single player game.

Because even WoW has things where you have to form strong groups to get things done. Do you seriously believe that the wall you hit with CoPs won't happen again in FFXI somehow? I promise you its going to happen again.

lolumad?

I never really hit a wall, I just quit the game for a few years and when I came back, no one wanted to do CoP anymore.

It's nice to be able to do things on your own accord, I don't want to rely on incompetence.

And having to deal with scum who have a little sand in their vagina over nothing just gets annoying.

I can honestly say I feel bad for you though. You’ll probably never know how tough the Mithra fight was…you’ll probably get through Snoll with ease.
And you’ll probably never get to fully feel the intensity of the airship battle. You’ll probably remember those promyies forever but you’ll eventually lose track of all the remaining missions moving forward.

The only tough part is finding [competent] people to do it.., I don't understand why no one can see that. Maybe it's different for you, but that's no fun, sorry. Even if the fight was harder, it's the same story line, it's the same battle, just without other people.

I finished ZMs, ToAU, and WoTG (nearly), and I've yet to encounter any problems, since there's more demand (or was) for them when I did them.

Therein lied the problem with CoP, that's now resolved.


/bow SE


EDIT: Also, I thoroughly enjoyed the Diabolos fight. I was excited and nervous to try it on my own, and I ran in knowing exactly where to go, didn't have to wait for anyone, nothing. Yes he could hardly hit me, but I didn't have stun for Nightmare or anything, so it was interesting and it was a 9 minute fight.

[Feba]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

I want to relate two stories.

The first was my story of unlocking Sky. I found myself in a group of Post-Headstones, I don't remember how. We, in a single evening, played from Tonberries until we were walking around Tu'Lia. We were a mostly organized and speedy group, with the exception of a melee who later started bragging about buying gil and had the gall to ask mages to sneak/invis him. In Ro'Maeve.

The second was my story of CoP. I first ventured into Promyvion-Dem immediately after the expansion was launched. I followed a Japanese party to the top floor, where their mage dropped out, and they offered to let me join them in the boss fight. We wiped miserably. Some time later, I finally completed Promyvion-Dem with a group of people I'd met at FFFF06, within 48 hours of the end of the event. Later, I did 2-3. After opening the lock, I was sent ahead of the group to trigger the minotaur draw-in. Why was a BLM sent to do a THF's task? Because I was the only person capable of sneaking around True Sight mobs. After felling the Minotaur, the group moved on to the ladder, and basically split up before doing the second half. I informed a friend of mine, who loves COP more than everything else in FFXI combined, and he offered to help me with completing the mission. We went in as a duo; him as a naked level 3 SMN. We made it.

Here are the lessons:

The ones that were hardest weren't funnest. Promies and the first half of the minotaur mission were absolute torture. I didn't feel any more amazed when I beat them than when I first stepped into Tu'lia.

The ones that took bigger groups weren't more fun. Headstones and Minotaur fight were a hassle, not a joy. The small groups that allowed me to actually know who I was fighting with were fun. The random fucking around with a friend is a memory.

The ones that took more time don't occupy any more of my memory. I've forgotten most of FFXI's expansion plots by now, but I remembered what I got of the COP storyline just as well as ROZ.

I'm not saying there's no place for difficulty in video games, in MMOs, or in anything else; nor am I saying there's no place for content that requires large groups in an MMO. But don't act like its presence makes the game somehow superior; it just appeals to people that like more challenging gameplay. In COP's case, this came at the cost of being so difficult that it necessarily excluded some people from being able to complete it. And maybe it would be great to have something like that challenge for people who want it, maybe with great rewards, but having that as storyline content that unlocks very important areas is just lame. MGS is no less a game on EZ than on EU Extreme; difficulty should be a matter of matching player ability and preference to content, and COP failed miserably in that.

[Truece]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

We tried some low-man airship fights last night.

First attempt was RDM/DNC and PLD/BLU. No food/meds. Of course mammets were a breeze. We got Omega down to ~20% before we were overwhelmed with Pile Pitches. We died in a bad spot and couldn't reraise. It was a good learning experiment.

Attempt #2 was WAR/DNC and PLD/DNC. No food/meds. Mammets went down very quickly. We took Omega to ~5% before our first wipe. After reraising, we killed Omega and got Ultima to ~50% before our second wipe. We timed out with Ultima somewhere around 30%. We were playing it very conservative.

Had some others from the linkshell join us for attempt #3. WAR/DNC, SAM/DNC, PLD/DNC, RDM/WHM, all 75 or 76. No food/meds. Mammets were easy. Omega and Ultima both went down in ~5 mins.

I'm not sure if this fight is soloable yet (maybe with a level 80 job...) but I would think it is definitely duo-able. I'm just glad that the rest of the LS will finally be able to get up to sea! It was a lot of fun trying different things last night... most fun I've had in the game in quite awhile!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Again, I'll defer to my Pac-Man example.

Pac-Man is the same game for everyone, but Billy Mitchell is better at Pac-Man than everyone.

He's not playing a different Pac-Man game from the rest of us, he's just better at it. Its why he's a record-holder, its how he got rich and was able to start his own business. And he's a total asshole, too.

But would it be fair to him if Namco just gave out world records to everyone and everyone started getting placed in the Guinness Book of World Records for doing nothing special? Because this is what many of you are saying should happen, either because of "equal access" to content or "other people being incompetent" or "bad luck."

When everyone gets rewarded for being unremarkable, then the content and reward ceases to be remarkable.

[Ziero]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

I want to relate two stories.*snip*

Can I relate stories too?

My first time doing the rank 2-3 Dragon fight, I was a barely level 25 newb thf and had no LS and no real friends. I randomly joined up with a guy who needed the fight, and from there we randomly joined up with a few more people who were willing to help. It was a sloppy, messy, horrendously bad fight(it was a terrible party setup) where most people died...but we still won and it felt awesome. Incidentally it was during this fight where I was given my first LS, and from there, that LS grew and changed to pretty much the one I'm running now. And even though the dragon fight is now super easy to me (I've actually soloed it on War before) it's still one of the most fun things for me in game because I know at one time it was hard. And the fact that it's easy now is because I personally have gotten better at this game.

Next story is about my first time doing the rank 4 tower climb. I was lvl 30ish, had a few friends with me at the start, and before we got too far in, a 'high level'(lvl 60) buddy decided to help. It was one of the most boring experiences I've had playing the game. I didn't even have to sn/in...he just killed everything. It was at that point I personally swore I'd never have my hand held through any in game storyline mission again, and I'm proud to say I never did from that point on. If I were to do a mission, I would do it at a point I could hold my own and actually contribute to the event.

Long stories short, my experiences are the exact opposite of yours. The missions that were harder, that we did lose a few times before coming back and pulling out the win stand out far clearer in my mind then those where I just kind of drifted through them. Promy fights especially made for some awesomely epic wins, and were always fun even when they got "easy" because until now, the fights themselves were never changed. The Airship fight was one of the greatest fights I've had in this game, conversely the Snoll Tzar was boring as hell. I loved helping people do the Aqueducts because after killing the Minotaur (doable with 4-5 pre-cap) I would usually just end up duoing the rest with the person. Though most times I'd end up (expectantly) dead, the times I didn't were that much more fun because it showed me, personally, that I've gotten better at something.

I've always maintained a personal belief that most mission fights should be capped. Start low and slowly work your way up. It provided players with a clear image of progression while allowing them a break from the endless monotony of exp grinding. I guess it was an inevitable change, seeing as how most people only care to take the path of least resistance, but it's still a sad change to see for people who actually enjoyed the challenging small party content.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

Ziero pretty much nailed it. Things are less fun when they're trivial.

You know what was tons of fun for me? Sneaking into Crawlers' Nest half a dozen times trying to corner an Exoray without getting eaten en route for my first Genkai quest and then soloing it.

You know what wasn't fun? Having my higher level friend mop the floor with every Lich in the Necropolis for me.

[Feba]

Re: Chains of Promathia Areas Unfettered! (05/24/2010)

When everyone gets rewarded for being unremarkable, then the content and reward ceases to be remarkable.

So basically what you're saying is that COP was good because you were able to clear it and that helped your ego? Grow up. Nobody is asking to be given special attention, nobody is asking that superior players not get recognition. What people want is to be able to enjoy the game, including the battles and storyline. I mean, how stupid is it that lots of people who paid for COP never got access to Lufaise? And not for lack of trying. I'm not saying that buying an expansion means you should automatically get all the goodies it comes with, but it does mean that you should be able to enjoy the content it contains.

And even though the dragon fight is now super easy to me

were always fun even when they got "easy" because until now, the fights themselves were never changed.

We're not in disagreement. It's not high difficulty that makes a fight great, it's simply good design. Even when those fights are made easier, they were still good fights.

You know what wasn't fun? Having my higher level friend mop the floor with every Lich in the Necropolis for me.

Yes! Exactly; do you remember why you had your higher level friend mop the floor with Liches? Because that content was unreasonably difficult. Heck, I did almost exactly the same thing; only difference was that I was dualboxing with a friend's account. But you bet your ass I solo'd that funguar. Because it was possible. About the only possible way to kill liches would've been to find other people at that level who also needed the quest and wanted to have a miserable time of it.

It's not the difficulty of the content that made it interesting, it was the challenge. I'm not saying that people need to be able to bring their super-overleveled characters into promy, but the opposite end of the spectrum is far worse. Ideally, COP fights would've been redesigned to have higher level options, which in turn restricted group size. So that if you can't get a full group, it's not an insane proposition to duo, trio, or quadman it. As it was, far too many people were held back by the simple inability to find a consistent and competent group to do them with, regardless of their own skill.