The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

[Feba]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

Long story short, bad ideas are bad, and totally irrelevant to this update.

Potential easy solutions:
1- Personal Treasure pool
2- NMs assign loot tables to characters, HNMs assign loot tables to the LS those people have equipped. If more than one LS is equipped, points are divided among them based on playercount, and the lowest drop table is used. If no LS are equipped, the lowest drop table is used, and no points are accrued. This also encourages LS unity.
3- NMs always drop some ra/ex loot, which must then be redeemed for your reward. Chance of successful redemption increases as you kill more. Think "You place the Scale of X on the Shrine. ...Your prayers are unheard.", "You place the X Tail on the Shrine. Your prayer is answered with a Shiny Bow!", Delkfutt keys, etc. Not like this would make any less sense than a dragon having a fucking sword anyway.
4- Highest available loot table is used, always. Would also make it easier to get help when you're really having trouble-- "0/23 on Ass'oule the Suregripped!" would mean that he's more likely to drop things for other people too. HNMLS might lust after people without shiny items to help increase their drop rate until they're well equipped themselves-- and then you would bring in more new players.

Plenty of ways you can go with it to make it a positive thing beyond even "you don't have to kill things until the end of time with no promise of drop" without much thought. This took all of three minutes, SE can do that.

[Ziero]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

And almost every single one of those ideas would involve massively changing the entire loot distribution and drop mechanics in the game. Including somehow magically linking the entire drop history to a specific Linkshell, which would not only promote a strong get stronger while a weak get weaker mentality (bigger shells who get more kills also get higher drop rates while smaller shells get worse drop rates for less kills? BRILLIANT!), but be completely and totally dependent on how long that specific LS leader decides to stay in the game. I'm sure everyone would love it if their chances of getting good HNM drops depended solely on whether or not their LS leader will stay in the game and not just screw everyone over after getting what he wants.

The only good suggestion there was the R/E > desired item concept, which would still be annoying...but it would kind of give you some sort of feeling of progression...kinda. Or SE could just use one of the many many many different point systems they've added to the game to specifically deal with NM drops. The more you kill a mob, the more points you get and eventually you can just buy the damned item. But that's something they choose not to do. It would by far be the easiest and most rewarding way to give people "progression" based drops (the more you kill it the closer you get)...but they chose not to. Because SE are dicks who want us playing this game until the end of time.

[Feba]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

(bigger shells who get more kills also get higher drop rates while smaller shells get worse drop rates for less kills? BRILLIANT!)

Because that's what I said. Ziero, stop making so many assumptions and consider how things could work.

I'm sure everyone would love it if their chances of getting good HNM drops depended solely on whether or not their LS leader will stay in the game and not just screw everyone over after getting what he wants.

Yeah, because people hate trying to find a good solid community, but they just love having all of their success determined by the Random Number Generator gods! I never said anything about lowering chances for unstable LS.

.but it would kind of give you some sort of feeling of progression...kinda.

Not really. It would take away the randomness of drops while not going to the other side and turning into a straight grind like points-based items are. Maybe you get something the first time you offer a Fafnir Scale, while your buddy is turning in 50 without getting anything (this is assuming everyone in the alliance gets one when fafhogg dies, again think delkfutt keys). But every time that buddy turns in another, his chances are increased not just by the laws of probability, but by the game itself.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

Tell that guy (LS friend; he quit the game shortly after obtaining his swift belt) he's just whining 'cuz he didn't get the drop.

He's just whining.

I've just spent months helping to building six Sarameya pop, passed on bunch of gear which I find desirable on the way, to make sure I have the highest point total so I can get the first Hachiryu Haidate, even though in the percentage cost system (which I set up, lol), it would cost me far more points than anyone else that way. Five wins, but not a single Hachiryu dropped--so I shrugged--we got bunch of other stuff people wanted, and I can live with that.

[Lmnop]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

He's just whining.

I've just spent months helping to building six Sarameya pop, passed on bunch of gear which I find desirable on the way, to make sure I have the highest point total so I can get the first Hachiryu Haidate, even though in the percentage cost system (which I set up, lol), it would cost me far more points than anyone else that way. Five wins, but not a single Hachiryu dropped--so I shrugged--we got bunch of other stuff people wanted, and I can live with that.

What's your point? You can't perform some mathematical stunt to make you more likely to get a Moldavite Earring. You just have to kill the stupid goblin more times. This has nothing to do with DKP and any other LS loot distribution rules.

[Zoltar]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

/sigh...lots of ToAU to do...why was I so lazy?

[Ziero]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

Because that's what I said. Ziero, stop making so many assumptions and consider how things could work.

Yeah, because people hate trying to find a good solid community, but they just love having all of their success determined by the Random Number Generator gods! I never said anything about lowering chances for unstable LS.

I am considering how things work, and assigning any kind of drop information to current linkshell equipped is an absolute terrible idea. The Linkshell system in and of itself is unstable enough seeing as the entire concept always hinges on a single person, to somehow increase the chances of better drops based on something that a single person can control is just a bad idea. On top of that, there are currently endgame shells that demand it's members throw away all other shells as is, having a drop system that gets linked to the current shell you have equipped would just reinforce that whole concept of "it's us or gfto" because no LS would want people sitting in for the kills only to boost some other LS's drop percentage. It wouldn't promote "Linkshell unity" it would promote more obedience to endgame LS leaders and more paranoia between rival shells.

And again, bigger shells who get more claims would also see a much larger increase in drop rate then smaller shells who claim less frequently on HNMs. Meaning it would give more rewards to the bigger shell then they already are getting, while smaller shells who claim less would end up with lower chances of getting the drop. Who would want to stick it out with a smaller shell if they not only got less claims, but had lower drop rates as well? The Linkshell system should have absolutely nothing to do with drop rates or loot tables.

Not really. It would take away the randomness of drops while not going to the other side and turning into a straight grind like points-based items are. Maybe you get something the first time you offer a Fafnir Scale, while your buddy is turning in 50 without getting anything (this is assuming everyone in the alliance gets one when fafhogg dies, again think delkfutt keys). But every time that buddy turns in another, his chances are increased not just by the laws of probability, but by the game itself.

So you want the perceived notion of grinding, yet you want to keep the unreliability of percentage drops? It's the worst of both worlds!

Again, bad ideas are bad, and totally irrelevant to this update.

SE has no problem making people grind. For example, I point to the wonderful new Magian weapons. The entire system is nothing but multiple grinds chained together to make one massively long craptastically asshatish super grind, just to get some decent weapons. With wonderful conditions like "Kill 100 bunnies during weather conditions!" or "Kill this excessively overcamped NM 3 times!" (Hoo Mjuu the Torrent...really? Hoo Mjuu the god damned Torrent? Isn't this bastard camped to high hell and back enough?), SE has no problem making you, the player, grind your freaking ass off. But even still, I'd much rather do that when it comes to NM/HNM kills then rely on any kind of luck.

i.e. if Nyzul gave people some kind of token reward system that would eventually allow players to buy the gear that drops from there, it would be a FAR less frustrating experience. In the end, that's exactly why I love assaults so much.

[Feba]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

because no LS would want people sitting in for the kills only to boost some other LS's drop percentage.

Because people totally hate it when other people have bonuses, amirite? Clearly providing any advantage to one player over another makes people sad. SE must reapportion stats from the best equipped players to the worst, so that we are all perfectly even and can truly enjoy Vana'diel. Players will not stand to have someone out there better than them.

The only thing this would cause is LS demanding you wear their pearl while you're killing things with them, which you should be doing anyway for communication.

And again, bigger shells who get more claims would also see a much larger increase in drop rate then smaller shells who claim less frequently on HNMs.

Not necessarily. Again, people/LS who see drops could see their luck decrease or reset; it could make little difference. In fact, this could balance them out-- while the small LS claims and kills less often, their odds of obtaining equipment from killing a mob in a set year are almost as good because the system compensates somewhat for the length of time between kills.

So you want the perceived notion of grinding, yet you want to keep the unreliability of percentage drops? It's the worst of both worlds!

No. The perceived notion of not knowing when you'll obtain an item, yet the security of knowing your chances improve for the next time when you fail. It's not perfect, but it's far better than dumb luck.


Again, thinking requires thought, and if you're not prepared to do that, don't comment on hypotheticals.

[Elwynn]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

SE has no problem making people grind. For example, I point to the wonderful new Magian weapons. The entire system is nothing but multiple grinds chained together to make one massively long craptastically asshatish super grind, just to get some decent weapons. With wonderful conditions like "Kill 100 bunnies during weather conditions!" or "Kill this excessively overcamped NM 3 times!" (Hoo Mjuu the Torrent...really? Hoo Mjuu the god damned Torrent? Isn't this bastard camped to high hell and back enough?), SE has no problem making you, the player, grind your freaking ass off. But even still, I'd much rather do that when it comes to NM/HNM kills then rely on any kind of luck. .

Oh geez, this. I hadn't heard about what it involved until someone in LS yesterday said she was having a hard time geting dhalmels in Tahrongi for FoV to level a new subjob. Turns out that "kill Serpopard Ishtar three times in weather" is one of the tasks. Serpo-fucking-pard Ishtar, who couldn't get the time of day before, is a lottery pop off of, guess what, dhalmels, which are a standard exp mob in Tahrongi. And guess what they're doing to pop her? Apparently (what I infer from what I heard) they're trying to genocide every dhalmel in the zone, not just the group that contains the placholder. Because the concept of the placeholder is as alien to most players these days as that of magic bursts.

So one of the targets is a lottery pop off of exp mobs, and another one of the target mobs was already badly overcamped? FUCKING BRILLIANT, SE.

[Mhurron]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

It's only a problem now because it's new, in a week or two it won't matter.

[Ziero]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

Because people totally hate it when other people have bonuses, amirite? Clearly providing any advantage to one player over another makes people sad. SE must reapportion stats from the best equipped players to the worst, so that we are all perfectly even and can truly enjoy Vana'diel. Players will not stand to have someone out there better than them.

The only thing this would cause is LS demanding you wear their pearl while you're killing things with them, which you should be doing anyway for communication.

...do you not know how endgame shells work? Yes, some other shell getting any kind of advantage will piss off anyone not in that shell. Especially if that advantage comes at the cost of your shell's gaining of the advantage. Many Endgame linkshells already demand you have nothing but their shell. If equiping a different shell while killing an HNM increases the drop rate increase for that second LS while reducing the drop rate increase for the first shell, you think any HNMLS will allow it's members to have more then one shell? And again, at any time, a Linkshell leader can just up and quit, destroying the shell and any increased drop rate that came with it. And you seriously think that making it so the Shell is what determines how frequently something drops is a good idea?

Not necessarily. Again, people/LS who see drops could see their luck decrease or reset; it could make little difference. In fact, this could balance them out-- while the small LS claims and kills less often, their odds of obtaining equipment from killing a mob in a set year are almost as good because the system compensates somewhat for the length of time between kills.

Except their reset luck would quickly rise up again with increased claims. I don't see how that concept is hard to figure out. LS A claims and kills an HNM 10 times compared to LS B's 1. That means that every claim and kill from LS A would increase the drop rate for their shell exponentially faster then LS B. Even if it does reset after an item drops, LS A would still be able to constantly out claim and kill compared to LS B, thus always gaining an advantage in drop rates. Because even if LS B did have higher drop rates for a longer time, their drops would also reset once the items they were after dropped.

Which actually brings up another issue altogether, what items would determine when the drop rate boost for the LS resets? Different items have different values to different players. And the worth of an item in SE's eyes is FAR different from that of the value in the player's eyes...so how exactly would things be balanced out?

No. The perceived notion of not knowing when you'll obtain an item, yet the security of knowing your chances improve for the next time when you fail. It's not perfect, but it's far better than dumb luck.

A lot of things are better then dumb luck, but this idea still relies heavily on dumb luck.

Again, thinking requires thought, and if you're not prepared to do that, don't comment on hypotheticals.

Dude, your bad ideas are just bad. Stop getting so butthurt because your ideas don't hold water.

It's only a problem now because it's new, in a week or two it won't matter.

One of the Staff trials involved killing Valkurm Emperor 3 times. This system needs a major overhaul and the removal of commonly camped NMs from it's requirements. Make new NMs that drop absolutely nothing of value if you want to have an NM hunt in the trials, but don't make mobs like VE and Hoo Mjuu the freaking Torrent, who are heavily camped regardless of their trials, requirements to upgrade the weapons. Shepard Ishtar I can see being used since no body cared about him. But mobs who are already camped and killed as soon as they spawn should be exempt form this ridiculous grindfest of a "quest" line.

[Ufgt]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

lol SE.

I agree with Ziero, commonly camped NMs should be exempt. With the server merges and everyone trying to get these quests done, those mobs will be camped for a long ass time and people are just going to end up giving up lol.

[Durahansolo]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

One of the Staff trials involved killing Valkurm Emperor 3 times.

Shit........Well I guess I'd better start getting gil together for Emp Pin.

[Nuriko]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

Well, at least you can form a PT and all get credit for the kill ... and if it happens to drop the object, hopefully somebody who needs it can get it.

Mind you, I wouldn't put it past SE to do this same nonsense with Argus...

[LeonstrifeLEV]

Re: The Version Update Has Arrived! (03/22/2010)

I liked how this thing said "quests level 75" players and im sitting in pashow marshlands waiting for bloodpool vorax for the third time. Then I'm off to valkrum dunes for golden bat. I don't know if they're trying to tell me something or....