VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

[Kailea]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

The game is still far from over, there is a lot things can be add into the game. For example

1. PvP system or more a RvR system
2. Jump into the future! a world of mech and such exist!
3. more story! (seriously no more scenario..)
4. On going world changing massive events!
5. Ok no more crafting related stuff... but i would love real housing.
6. A new continent with "housing and make your own kingdom"

But i don't see a future for a MMORPG without a PVP system or RvR anymore.Most likely FFXIV won't be even come close to FFXI's population after release even when SE are "copying" monster hunter frontier for FFXIV (what with the guild system mission system? )

Anyway, FFXIV Still got a long wait. I don't trust SE with their release dates (like FFXIII should be released 2 years ago). And most likely the japanese get the "1 years" ahead of North American release again just like every final fantasy series to date.

P.S: It is a fact that japanese's MMORPG never does well beyond the japan's market. (look at various japanese MMO you will see)

2, 5, and 6 would never happen in FFXI, and as far as FFXIV release, everyone is getting it at once, they have not stressed this enough.

"Most likely FFXIV won't be even come close to FFXI's population after release even when SE are "copying" monster hunter frontier for FFXIV" honestly you dont know jack, like the rest of us. No one knows this will happen. Also yes, there are some Monster Hunter elements in FFXIV, well that we can see so far anyway. But from videos and info we have so far, it will play nothing like it.

[Feba]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

I guess I'm more talking about all the copy & paste MMOs that most developers have been doing the past 5+ yrs as an attempt at capitalizing on the success that WoW has earned.

Most MMOs fail. Most PvP, WoW-ripoff MMOs fail, yes; so do most PvE MMOs. Most MMOs failing does not mean that some certain category of MMO is doomed to failure, or is no good--look at Franchise MMOs. Sure, Star Wars Galaxies and Matrix Online fared poorly, but LOTRO didn't do too badly, nor did FFXI; and let's not forget that WoW was the Warcraft MMO long before it was the ubiquitous one. Look at SciFi MMOs-- yes, most fail, but some succeed. Look at fantasy MMOs.

Nothing about MMO style or gameplay really means jackshit, as long as it can find and enthrall a playerbase.

[wrongfeifong]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

I don't know about the "play nothing like it" part for FFXIV when it come to copying "missions" If you did play MHF online, it is pretty much like this

1. start a mission from guild master set number of players to 4 (with condition)
2. Shout on the world channel (Fire dragon alpha -3 @here)
3. Players will come to a job board looking at existing missions that player made 1/4...2/4 3/4.. etc
4. players will accepts missions suitable to their needs.
5. All player gather @ entrance, missions last 50 min
6. Main objective: Kill xxx boss Second objective: (optional) Do such such and such to the boss Third objective (optional): kill XXX monster number of time
7. main objective complete: warp back to town and get experience, guild points and money. Repeat step 1.

That's basically how monster hunter frontier online rolls. That's how FFXIV will also be with the guild system. I can see why FF want to copy this system since MHFO did have over 1.5 million subs for japan only.

As for the Japanese MMORPG comment, SE only released one MMORPG worldwide, but they have few MMO as well exclusive for japan and they published Fantasy Earth Zero which did well enough and got cancel (and pick up by other companies)

I don't know about North America But a lot korean/Chinese MMORPG does well on their part. Also did become F2P as well.
Anyway my point was that japanese MMORPG never does well outside japan, not specifically for SE.

P.S: look at Rune of magic, i heard it is doing pretty good as a WoW clone from a friend.

[cidbahamut]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

P.S: look at Rune of magic, i heard it is doing pretty good as a WoW clone from a friend.

Way to shoot yourself in the foot there chief. I tried Runes of Magic a few days before I picked up FFXI. That has got to be the clunkiest PoS I've ever had the misfortune of downloading, and that's including crap like Rubies of Eventide and old school Runescape.

[Khalus]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

Most MMOs fail. Most PvP, WoW-ripoff MMOs fail, yes; so do most PvE MMOs.

You can probably count on one hand the # of "PvE-Only" MMOs that exist, FFXI being one of them. A PvE MMO IMO has absolutely no PvP that dictates how PvE is played. FFXI does have a from of PvP, but it still runs on and is balanced by the PvE ruleset. Most MMOs that tend to be based on PvP are also more casual and encourage solo-only gameplay, where as a PvE MMO is based more on group enforced gameplay.

Examples of what I'm talking about ~ LOTRO comes to mind and is advertised as a PvE MMO, but it too is plagued by running on the horrible balancing of the PvMP ruleset. Same as WoW, has tons of PvE but everything is balanced according to the PvP, thus these are not PvE MMOs...nor is anything else out there that follows this style.

There are a ton of MMOs,{OnRPG} and I don't feel like finding the other PvE Exclusive MMOs that exist, if they even do. As of this moment the only ones that come to mind are FFXI & FFXIV.

[Kailea]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

You can probably count on one hand the # of "PvE-Only" MMOs that exist, FFXI being one of them. A PvE MMO IMO has absolutely no PvP that dictates how PvE is played. FFXI does have a from of PvP, but it still runs on and is balanced by the PvE ruleset. Most MMOs that tend to be based on PvP are also more casual and encourage solo-only gameplay, where as a PvE MMO is based more on group enforced gameplay.

Examples of what I'm talking about ~ LOTRO comes to mind and is advertised as a PvE MMO, but it too is plagued by running on the horrible balancing of the PvMP ruleset. Same as WoW, has tons of PvE but everything is balanced according to the PvP, thus these are not PvE MMOs...nor is anything else out there that follows this style.

There are a ton of MMOs,{OnRPG} and I don't feel like finding the other PvE Exclusive MMOs that exist, if they even do. As of this moment the only ones that come to mind are FFXI & FFXIV.

Messing around with a game right now called Cloud Nine (also called Holic 2) and I found that they solved part of the PvE/PvP problem, with an extra HP bar called the CP bar, and its used only in PvP, basically you have double your HP in PvP, then you do PvE.

[Khalus]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

Messing around with a game right now called Cloud Nine (also called Holic 2) and I found that they solved part of the PvE/PvP problem, with an extra HP bar called the CP bar, and its used only in PvP, basically you have double your HP in PvP, then you do PvE.

I've actually have that one installed and have played around with it a bit, but not too much yet. I played the crap out of Holic though, but since I'm planning on returning to FFXI this Feb 1st, I'm kinda taking a break from MMOs.

I'm looking forward to whatever is gonna be announced at this Vanafest though, hopefully a new expansion that is more focused on lower end content so everything under 50 will be more populated. Its not horrible as it is now, but a few hundred more players down there more often couldn't hurt.

FFXI already has the most robust end-game of damn near every MMO combined, so I don't see a reason to add more.

[Takelli]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

There are a ton of MMOs,{OnRPG} and I don't feel like finding the other PvE Exclusive MMOs that exist, if they even do. As of this moment the only ones that come to mind are FFXI & FFXIV.

I can think of one other. Its been in open Beta since october lol. Its Earth Eternal. It is true PVE. They might be adding a PvP element later on though, but its gonne be in arenas like WoW arenas, and wont be an open PvP. Its good and a true PVE atm, but later on, not sure.

Tires of all these MMO's that focus on PvP, and not PvE, and story elements. I'd like to play a game that is "True" PvE, that is balance, and made for PvE. If they do add PvP, it should be like how FFXI is but with a better way of doing it. Not schedualed, but you just sign up for PvP in an area, and you can just PvP, but its just on a very small scale, just like FFXI.

[wrongfeifong]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

I still found FFXI made the best PVP system among all these games. There is no overpowering, No one man army and gears never add up too much or too less to PVP. However, SE insist on "lets not make a pvp game". I always found it disappointing, that it would have been the greatest RvR.

I can see why they refuse it, since Fantasy earth Zero was a failure of SE (pure RvR PVP game) they just don't want to see FFXI turn that way. Also those "i want my job to be the best of all" crowd with their annoying "buff my job or i quit" comments. To **** with them, don't turn a game into Asheron's call 2 where developper just mod class base on player base.

I am not a major PVE gamer because i have too much console games to play already, give me some form of large scale battle and leave the PVE content to other games when i want single player then shouting for a group for next 5 hours.

[Karinya]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

I don't know about the "play nothing like it" part for FFXIV when it come to copying "missions" If you did play MHF online, it is pretty much like this

1. start a mission from guild master set number of players to 4 (with condition)
2. Shout on the world channel (Fire dragon alpha -3 @here)
3. Players will come to a job board looking at existing missions that player made 1/4...2/4 3/4.. etc
4. players will accepts missions suitable to their needs.
5. All player gather @ entrance, missions last 50 min
6. Main objective: Kill xxx boss Second objective: (optional) Do such such and such to the boss Third objective (optional): kill XXX monster number of time
7. main objective complete: warp back to town and get experience, guild points and money. Repeat step 1.

The *entire* interesting part of the game is in between your steps 5 and 6. How do you get around and do things in the game world? You know, actually playing the game? If that's interesting your game is interesting. If not it fails. Talking to NPCs will never make an interesting game (or if it did, it would be a completely different genre of game), and forming the right party for the job is primarily a chore that has to be completed before you can get on with the actual dragonslaying (etc.).

More importantly, if that actual gameplay is similar then the games are similar, and if not, no sane player would describe them as similar games just because you get quests from NPCs, do them, and then go back to town.


As for PvP, I think Khalus described very well why I avoid playing WoW when a lot of other players are on and spend most of my time in unpopulated zones. (Well, that and the performance issues. WoW scales terribly, which is ironic for the most popular MMO in the world.) The amazing thing about it is that because of all the things the devs did to allow soloability, you can actually sort of enjoy WoW as a semi-single-player game (interacting with other players mainly through the AH) for a while; but the more I have to interact with the kinds of players that are drawn to WoW, the less I enjoy it. It's not just that I don't like PvP (the way existing MMOs do it), I also don't like most of the people that like it, or the social structures that they build.

The first law of online gaming is the Field of Dreams Rule: If you build it, they will come. But *who* will come to your game (and stay there) depends on *what* you build. And PvP (and most especially world-pervasive PvP) is a jerk magnet. There's lots of jerks in the world, so this can be good, from a commercial standpoint; but I'd like to think there's market opportunities for something else, too. (Well, clearly there are, or FFXI wouldn't be here long enough for us all to be talking about whether or not it will persist *longer* than, what is it now, 7 years?) Not every restaurant is a hamburger joint, even though hamburgers are popular.


P.S. Everyone says that PvP should be based on skill and not level or gear, but ISTM that the obvious implication of this is that you shouldn't do PvP in an RPG at all, because leveling up and acquiring new spells/abilities and gear and becoming more powerful are (a) one of the central mechanics of RPGs and (b) a massive source of imbalance in PvP. (Every MMORPG with PvP has ended up proving this intentionally or otherwise.) If you want to PvP, go play something like Halo where all the players have access to the same weapons, and compete to use them effectively. (Or play an actual strategy game if you want that instead of twitch skills.)

Ultimately it's the same balance flaw as CCGs: allowing players to bring something other than their skills to the start of the match. The fact that this amounts to allowing people to cheat is concealed by the fact that it's the game designers doing it, and by people's desire to be the one on the "good" end of the unfairness if they just farm more gear/buy more cards. Since I'm old enough to hold down a job, I'm also old enough to realize that I don't have the free time to outfarm a bunch of obsessive-compulsives; so I'll never *start* a match on an even footing with them in a game with PvP that works like WoW's. So why would I want to try it at all? (The PvP, that is; and if it's an important enough part of the game, then that too.)

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

I can't wait for some new XIV goodness :-D

[hexx]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

I still found FFXI made the best PVP system among all these games. There is no overpowering, No one man army and gears never add up too much or too less to PVP. However, SE insist on "lets not make a pvp game". I always found it disappointing, that it would have been the greatest RvR.

LOL you obviously never took on a good BLU in PvP did you >.>

[Takelli]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

LOL you obviously never took on a good BLU in PvP did you >.>

I second that lol. Unless you have an army of Red mages, and just silence them. XD

[Karinya]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

The small balance problem in MMORPG PvP is that players don't behave the same ways as monsters (and sometimes don't even have similar base stats, look at how many HP monsters have for example) so how do you balance the same jobs/classes to fight both? Usually you don't and end up with big balance problems in one or both areas, and in the particular case of FFXI, RDM and BLU end up unreasonably nasty in PvP because of their arsenal of ways of weakening enemies, which are nasty enough to be effective when applied to monsters 10 levels higher than the caster and can completely shut down an enemy player. (It doesn't help that anticasting and crowd control both don't suck in FFXI, and that those two jobs are well supplied with both. In WoW they start off sucking hard compared to most games -- for example there are *no* aoe sleeps *at all* and no silence lasts longer than a few seconds -- and then are nerfed even further when used in PvP. And even after that, dispels and status-removal were badly overpowered for years.)

The *big* balance problem in MMORPG PvP is the one I mentioned in my previous post - people bringing guns to knife fights. As long as gear acquisition is the hook that keeps the subscribers subscribed, it can't effectively be kept from unbalancing PvP; indeed, from the viewpoint of the hardcore raiders, the imbalance of letting them leverage their raid loot into a PvP advantage isn't a bug, it's a feature. Raiding and PvP are fundamentally two different games, and combining them into one world works badly at best, not just because of the tactics/job balance issues, but also because of the way players acquire gear and have it affect them.

P.S. Theoretically, I think you could fix this with two simple rules: (1) PvE gear cannot be worn in PvP and vice versa. (2) Everyone has access to all PvP gear usable by their class/job. Then you could even use the PvP gear to fix some of the class balance issues that arise from the lack of hate control, etc. -- e.g. giving normally squishy healer/mage types some real defense on their PvP armor, while keeping their PvE fragility to make it important to keep mobs off them, or handing out resist traits against enfeebles/CC that would be too powerful against certain jobs (or in general) otherwise. Of course PvP has to be walled off from the rest of the world to make rule 1 possible, and rule 2 will disappoint some people, but I think it could work, if the designers tune the PvP gear appropriately.

[Khalus]

Re: VanaFest 2010 Confirmed! (01/15/2010)

so how do you balance the same jobs/classes to fight both? Usually you don't and end up with big balance problems in one or both areas, and in the particular case of FFXI, RDM and BLU end up unreasonably nasty in PvP because of their arsenal of ways of weakening enemies, which are nasty enough to be effective when applied to monsters 10 levels higher than the caster and can completely shut down an enemy player.

The way I see to balance the two together without each effecting one another, since most PvP is instanced in battlefields, or arenas now. All open world PvE should remain unbalanced and raw PvE like FFXI handles it with some jobs being able to far excel and destroy other jobs and mobs, even in the Balista/Brenner modes.

However, once you enter an instanced PvP event, then all of ones stats are either reduced or increased to balance out where all jobs or classes are on more an equal setting as devs have been trying to do it now, but failing at miserably. They could even go as far as making strict PvE and PvP only gear, that can't be worn except when in those modes of play for even more variety and excitement in earning gear.

Once you step out of the PvP instances all your stats then return to the unbalanced PvE as they should be. And for the players that want some great fun still allow duels and open world PvP servers but in the PvE areas its all crazy unbalanced and you could get stopped hard by another job/class cause they're just that way. hehe