Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Summoning magic historically in the FF series has always been a magic based ability when you intially summon the monster and it uses its 2 hour ability. That was changed in 8 and 10. 10 made a lot of sense in how summoning magic worked, because then it was in the command window and you didn't use the summon's abilities like magic, but rather like a command. Job Abilities are like those commands as well. So it makes perfect sense to me that summoning magic and blood pacts are different. Historically, FF has always taken an idea from a previous game and incorporated it into greater effect in the next game, generally speaking.

If you ask me, they should have made Blood Pacts on par with a BRD. The summon's should have had more attractiveness in their abilities just as much as BRD is, since the avatars have buffs so similar to BRD's, those some are different if not better. I think with the Auras we will get, that will help change it in some small way, but its a shame its not at a sooner level. But I like the idea of using Fenny to buff acc/evade and then keeping out Ifrit for Warcry/DA. Though, I agree, it's kind of a bit of a stretch how summmoning magic skill works. :/ It's a shame you can't reach higher durations at a much easier pace than having to stack all this summoning skill. I don't see the balance in all of that.

I mean with all the work you do to get the job, it ought to be super crazy good like BRD is. But I wonder if that would cause the typical job-favoring syndrome to occur. -shrug-

Course on the same token, BRDS can't necessarily do really great DMG and heal like SMNs can and have a pet do tanking, so maybe it is a fair trade after all....

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

10 made a lot of sense in how summoning magic worked, because then it was in the command window and you didn't use the summon's abilities like magic, but rather like a command. Job Abilities are like those commands as well. So it makes perfect sense to me that summoning magic and blood pacts are different.

But if you want to look at it that way, the commands belong to the avatar, not the SMN. If anything the SMN's pet commands (Attack, stop attacking, GTFO) could be locked out, but why the Avatar's?

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Actually, it was in 8 that the GF acted on its own will I suppose. In 10, Yuna commanded the beast, it didn't act of its own. I'm just speculating how SE thinks, because, historically, they drag alot of stuff from a recent game into a next one and then flip the whole concept around and start anew, rehasing stuff from previous game for a bit.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Don't worry Armando, it was clear that he had no idea what he was talking about starting around his second paragraph, stating that Blood Pacts should've been more like Bard Songs (???) based solely upon new FFXI content that hasn't even been implemented yet.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I think he's saying SMNs buffs have always sucked compared to a BRD's. Which is kinda true. Historically SMN's buffs have mostly boiled down to Earthen Ward and Aerial Armor. Aerial Armor is mostly obsolete these days and an equivalent to Earthen Ward can be provided by SCHs. Besides that nothing has ever really come close to the STOP HAMMER TIME factor of Carnage Elegy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I think he's saying SMNs buffs have always sucked compared to a BRD's. Which is kinda true. Historically SMN's buffs have mostly boiled down to Earthen Ward and Aerial Armor. Aerial Armor is mostly obsolete these days and an equivalent to Earthen Ward can be provided by SCHs. Besides that nothing has ever really come close to the STOP HAMMER TIME factor of Carnage Elegy.

See, we're creeping back to the SMN inferiority complex again, let's try to avoid this.

Just because SCH does AoE Stoneskin better doesn't mean SMNs stops doing it. A SCH is not a given in all situations.

Just because SCH can AoE Phalanx doesn't mean SMNs and RDMs stop doing it. If you haven't leveled SCH at all, then these funtions are still worth investing in. A SCH is not always a given in all situations.

Oh right and Hastga, SMN's have that and only BRD is the other one that can do it, why not use this?

SCH might be trendy to endgame, but its still a mage, still invited to heal and some people are going to detest that. Others are going to detest its lack of Haste and Refresh. Others are going to hate that its not as directly powerful as BLM and ignore the value of its endurance with MP.

And when SE comes along to nerf Modus Veritas like they should, the scramble to level SCH as the latest and greatest exploitable job will end. That's the only reason the endgame scene even cares about SCH right now.

Without the MV exploit, they'll just see us as healers/tank party attachments again - does any SMN really miss that? We could be awesome in tandem with BLMs for crowd control and magic bursts, we could be a tremendous asset when paired with COR and four other bLMs - - but when are endgame leaders ever bright enough to make use of that?

Moving SMN to the party buffer role is one of the best things SE could have done with the job. I have always felt they should have been stronger in this department. While I do feel some of the buffs need to replaced (c'mon, really, Ice Spikes and Enthunder?), some of the existing buffs will be effective when paird with the new passive ones.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Oh right and Hastga, SMN's have that and only BRD is the other one that can do it, why not use this?

Hastega will deplete a SMN's MP reserves very quickly compared to manual casting by a WHM or RDM. I'm unsure of the duration, but you're largely trading MP efficiency for speed (which I don't have an issue with; I like the notion of SMN paying a huge upfront cost for a big effect, but the potency of other pacts need to be brought up to par)

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Sorry I changed the subject and started talking about SMN buffs because it was on my mind and now I see I said BPs and BRD songs in the same sentence; which could have been misconstrued as something else. Touchy, touchy rude children.

I was thinking that SMN and BRD have alot of similarities and that, given the fact the SMN is so hard to obtain and possibly the BRD is the easiest, that the SMN should have been given more abilities that have an effect in power similar to a BRD. With the new ability coming, that idea will see fruition. I felt though that there could be more, but realized, BRD doesn't have access to healing or stoneskin, or high damage attacks, so it rather balances out in that aspect.

And amen on the Ice Spikes and Enthunder comment.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Actually I thought it was kinda nice to have ice spikes on all my front line jobs the last time I had a SMN in my party. Sure it's crappy for endgame but at low levels it's not such a bad thing to have.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

See, we're creeping back to the SMN inferiority complex again, let's try to avoid this.

See, BBQ, this is why you annoy people when you debate with them. I never said SMN was inferior. I said their buffs are inferior. (This is the part where you would get snippy at my correction and instantly assume I'm implying SMNs buffs SHOULD be on par with BRD's.) I've never seen a BRD do damage in EXP, so they're not directly comparable. But it IS true that SMN's value diminished in the same proportion that /NIN became universal. You can't guarantee you'll have a SMN in your party (nor do most people want to guarantee it, because that's taking up a slot a BRD, COR, RDM, or DD could be taking) for Aerial Armor these days you can practically guarantee your DDs come /NIN. So everyone is /NIN and Aerial Armor is redundant.

And the deal with Hastega is that it's less MP efficient than normal Haste on a job that's already juggling damage, buffs, and cures on the same MP pool. And the root cause of that MP inefficiency is that it starts out at half the duration (which in itself also causes problems in keeping it up 24/7 due to the nature of Pact timers.) It does become increasingly usable as the SMN gets access to more and more Summoning Magic Skill to extend its duration closer to the real spell's, but it's not immediately as good. Also, if the SMN is sharing the party with a WHM or RDM then they can't share; and ideally the WHM or RDM will shoulder all the burden since in doing so they don't tie up the SMN's Ward timer. This situation is pretty common since everyone turns to RDM first, WHM second, and SMN third when it comes to EXP healers.

But contrary to what you think, I'm not crying foul because SMN is already getting a big boost to its support capabilities.

Touchy, touchy rude children.

You're not exactly a bundle of joy either, buddy. It's a miracle to see a post of yours where you disagree with someone without being intensely condescending or sarcastic. You talk down at people even when they're disagreeing with you respectfully.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

See, BBQ, this is why you annoy people when you debate with them. I never said SMN was inferior. I said their buffs are inferior. I've never seen a BRD do damage in EXP. But it IS true that SMN's value diminished in the same proportion that /NIN became universal. You can't guarantee you'll have a SMN in your party (nor do most people want to guarantee it, because that's taking up a slot a BRD, COR, RDM, or DD could be taking) for Aerial Armor these days you can practically guarantee your DDs come /NIN. So everyone is /NIN and Aerial Armor is redundant.

But contrary to what you think, I'm not crying foul because SMN is already getting a big boost to its support capabilities.

You sure implied it. But nice save, if that's what you call it.

You're not exactly a bundle of joy either, buddy. It's a miracle to see a post of yours where you disagree with someone without being condescending or sarcastic.

I actually wasn't referring to you. And I'm only not a bundle of joy towards you specifically. I know for one thing, you sure are no Apple Pie. So let's agree to disagree. /end

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Hastega will deplete a SMN's MP reserves very quickly compared to manual casting by a WHM or RDM. I'm unsure of the duration, but you're largely trading MP efficiency for speed (which I don't have an issue with; I like the notion of SMN paying a huge upfront cost for a big effect, but the potency of other pacts need to be brought up to par)

Actually, once a Summoner gets Evoker's Ring, they have access to the gear that allows them to keep a front line (assuming the front line in question has 4+ members, which even in a standard setup is 3 DDs and a tank) Hasted even more efficiently than a Red Mage or White Mage, and that's not even considering it's all at once, either!

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

The MP difference isn't THAT great, but it's certainly not putting SMN at a disadvantage in the Hasting department. 7MP to summon Garuda, 129MP to cast Hastega, maybe a couple of perpetuation ticks from the avatar being out, but let's just say 136MP. A RDM or WHM, assuming no Conserve MP procs, will have to spend 160MP. As long as Haste is benefiting 4 people, SMN isn't at a disadvantage, even if we included Conserve MP procs. If 5+ need it, it'd be at an advantage in the Hasting department.

There is also the convenience that, unlike a RDM or WHM, all your Hasting is done within a few seconds, while at least in my case I have to Haste, wait, Haste, wait, Haste, wait, Haste. Maybe I have to cure people in between, but I'd certainly choose the Hastega option just so I don't have to be paranoid and check my log to make sure I accidentally forget to Haste someone that rotation. This is of course assuming just regular parties, if you fight anything that dispels and your tanks need Haste back pronto, that'd be the situation where Haste > Hastega. But at the very least, Hastega is now a good option since they buffed it to 15% awhile back, it used to just be kind of "lol well I couldn't get a RDM or WHM, got a SMN at least" when it was still 15%

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

See, BBQ, this is why you annoy people when you debate with them. I never said SMN was inferior. I said their buffs are inferior.

And I didn't say inferior, I said "inferiority complex." The "I shouldn't do X because other jobs do X better than I do" thing. Since SMN doesn't do it "as good" as other jobs, they act like they shouldn't bother.

If I were to have SMN at the level to use Earthen Ward and was invited as a healer, I'd be doing lots and lots of it, not pointing at SCH. If I'm a RDM and don't merit Phanlanx II, don't have SCH leveled and my LS is always short on SCHs, I'm a twit for not meriting Phalanx.

(This is the part where you would get snippy at my correction and instantly assume I'm implying SMNs buffs SHOULD be on par with BRD's.)

Considering I've said otherwise in the past, no. I've always maintained that SMN should be closer to BRD and COR, just with their own unique buffs.

Garuda, Ifrit, Fenrir, Leviathan, Titan, Carbuncle and Diabolos per this update are sufficient in what they do. The passive and active buffs work alrright. Evasion and Haste from Garuda don't stack as well, but they're both wind buffs and I can't argue what else could thematically work better. Leviathan seems like it Should have gotten Regen, but I can't argue against magic accuracy.

Shiva and Ramuh still remain non-functional, though. If Shiva is going to have a passive MAB buff, something needs to compliment that - its not Ice Spikes. It would be Conserve MP, INT boost or something that fits with offensive casting. Ramah's Rolling Thunder and Critical Hit rate don't add up. As cliche as it is, an Accuracy or DEX buff would be more complimentary than Rolling Thunder. Then again, Fenrir gives Accuracy boosts already so it would need ot be something different.

That said, I think they don't need a potency increase so much as they all need a duration increase

I'm not terribly concerned with COR or BRD's place in the game. We're already accused of being too rare - Its just no one wants to be the BRD or put gil into COR that makes us rare. Everyone loves COR and BRD, but loving and being are two totally different things.

BRD and COR can use the company. So long as they have their own beneficial status label and magical buffs, I don't have a problem with SMN joining our merry little club. Were they to start having "blackjack" quality buffs or were able to reapply buffs quickly, then I would take issue with it.

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

And yet when I say the summon -> BP -> Release process is that job's current methodology of accessing their only class abilities (and, as such, is the only routine blocked by either status effect), all 3 of you talk about other details.

I just don't care about those details. I just want you to say "correct. It's the only such routine". Then you can follow it with explaining all you want about how irrelevant that detail is.

Well, the main reason I won't say that's correct is that it is not correct. Summon -> BP -> dismiss is not, in fact, the only common tactic that relies on both a spell and a JA and is therefore blocked by either Silence or Amnesia. Accession buffs, SA/SATA physical blue magic, BLU self-skillchaining with CA and possibly MBing with BA, and Pianissimo songs also do so.

You will probably reply that those other jobs aren't as reliant on those particular ways of using their spells/abilities as SMN is on BPs, which is sort of correct (although arguable for SCH), but misses the point because summon -> BP -> dismiss isn't the only way to BP, and in practice BPs are only part of a SMN's role in a party anyway.

Tactics, including positioning, are under the player's control and different tactics work better against different mobs. Imps are not a kind of funny-looking crab, and if you fight them thinking they are, then yes, they will royally fuck you.

Summon before the imp arrives at the party. Use enhancing BP right as the puller returns (if it's something they need to get in on). Use attack BP before the imp gets TP. Leave the avatar out so Silence can't stop you from summoning it for your next BP. (The update even makes this cheaper and provides your whole party with a buff at the same time.) Or just dismiss because you're not going to need another BP until the next fight.

And stay the hell out of range, didn't you learn this on Anticans or even mandies, goddammit. A job that has the luxury of fighting from long range has no business telling tanks, SCHs and BLUs that range is irrelevant and they just can't be bothered to try to avoid AoE (or that they're so horribly hosed by the possibility that some small fraction of the time they might fail to avoid it).

Imps are squishy but have nasty abilities. That's what they are. Fight accordingly.